FMJ yaw and upset performance

[stanc]

However, the other piece of the US puzzle is that we AREN'T Hague signatories, so it really doesn't matter.

I would agree, except for one thing: While it's true that the US did not sign Declaration III, it has always been official policy that we will conform to it. And we did so for at least the first half of the 20th century.

But, even under Declaration III, the US has always been free to use expanding bullets against other non-signatories (such as al-Qaeda and the Taliban). Since we practice an obvious fiction that we still abide by the Hague ban, I say that is dishonest, at best.

[stanc]

"Ok, our civilizations want to wipe each other out, as we conflict on every ideological landscape in human relations. Let's declare war on each other...but we must agree on how we will be doing the killing, bombing, gassing, etc....do all the diplomatic representatives present concur?

War has rarely been about eradicating the enemy. Rather, it has usually been only about defeating the opponent. Afterwards, everyone chooses up sides again in preparation for the next war.

The Hague composers realized war is essentially a game. In a game, there's no good reason to intentionally inflict unnecessary injury on members of the opposing team. So, war -- like other team sports -- has rules.

[bwaites]

War has rarely been about eradicating the enemy. Rather, it has usually been only about defeating the opponent. Afterwards, everyone chooses up sides again in preparation for the next war.

The Hague composers realized war is essentially a game. In a game, there's no good reason to intentionally inflict unnecessary injury on members of the opposing team. So, war -- like other team sports -- has rules.

Interesting viewpoint.

[stanc]

Interesting viewpoint.

Well, if anybody disagrees with my evaluation, I'm open to other opinions as to why war has rules.

[Tony Williams]

Well, if anybody disagrees with my evaluation, I'm open to other opinions as to why war has rules.

I think that you are basically correct, Stan. The USA had a taste of total war before Europe, in your Civil War, but the first European total war of modern times was WW1 - years after Hague.

The Crimean War, at much the same time as the ACW, is regarded as a pretty bloody affair but even so I recall reading of at least one incident when, on the day before a battle, officers from opposing armies separately decided to ride to a nearby hilltop to get a view. They met by chance at the top and had a civilised conversation before returning to their armies and preparing to kill each other the next day.

[LRRPF52]

Gents,

I like the stories about the soccer games on Christmas during The Great War of 1914-1918, where a ball was tossed out into no man's land, and the Germans, Brits, and French played massive games after singing Christmas carols in the muddy trenches. I think they had one that first Christmas in 1914.

When I was a kid, there was a local diner that had pictures on the wall of an F4U Corsair ace and one of his victories portrayed with the downing of am A6M. The Japanese pilot had survived and immigrated to the US, and lived in the same town if I remember correctly. He signed the artwork, as did the F4U pilot, and they became good friends, frequently meeting there for breakfast and good conversation.

Makes me wish a certain % of politicians would have to participate in a celebrity death match type competition...

LRRPF52

[Tony Williams]

Old enemies often become friends after the war is over - they have a lot in common, after all.

One of my favourite tales concerns an event which took place in North Africa in WW2 when a Messerschmitt 109 fighter, which had been strafing British troops until it ran out of ammunition, took one last pass over the scene to check the damage. A British officer pulled out his .38 service revolver (the most unlikely AA gun ever!) and fired a few shots in sheer frustration. One of the bullets just happened to hit either a fuel or coolant line (I forget which) causing the plane to crash-land before getting back to base.

Decades later, someone followed up this story, discovered that both men had not only survived the war but were still alive, and arranged a meeting. They had a great time together!

[stanc]

Old enemies often become friends after the war is over...

And that's not only true of individuals. It applies to nations, too. Allies in one war often become enemies after the conflict. Examples:

Japan ----- ally of the US and Britain in WWI, enemy in WWII, then ally again post-WWII.

Germany -- enemy in WWI and WWII, ally post-WWII.

Russia ---- ally in WWI and WWII, enemy post-WWII.

[bwaites]

Well, it's not a story of how enemies became friends, or how FMJ's perform, but it's still seriously cool, and another example of how strange things happen!

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-...news060311

[JASmith]

Well, it's not a story of how enemies became friends, or how FMJ's perform...

Hey that was pretty good performance for an FMJ at about 775 ft/sec!

(Velocity a guess based in .45 ACP muzzle velocity and allowing for a very close fly-by.)

[stanc]

As for 110 Barnes terminal ballistics... I've talked with coyote hunters who use them specifically because they make a small hole entering and leaving, saving the pelt.

Thanks, Bill. That's how I suspected it would perform.

The only 6.5mm bullet I know of that displayed relatively early yaw is the 123gr MatchKing, the gel test of which is shown in the lower half of attached photo.

Trouble is, I don't know if the early yaw was caused by:

a. The open tip coming apart due to impact stresses;
b. The rearward weight bias due to the nose cavity;
c. A combination of the above and/or other factors.

[bwaites]

Stan,

Wolf has announced steel case FMJ Grendel with a 110 Grain FMJ similar to the 5.45 7N6 round. That means an air pocket in the nose for rapid yaw if I remember the discussion correctly.

Price, $189/1000.

Per David Fortier, the initial run of steel cases are done, so it will rapidly become a transportation issue.

No one likes to leave steel cases laying around, the insides will rust too quickly, so it would make sense that we'll see them before year end, even with boat shipping.

That said, I'll believe it when they show up!! LOL

[stanc]

Bill, that will be too cool for words. Sounds something like a scaled-up version of their lead-core 5.45 bullet. (At right, in attached pic.)

Here's hoping that Wolf comes through, this time.

[stanc]

I have read similar complaints about barrier and windscreen penetration from a study of combat experience carried out by the Royal Marines last year. This study showed that only about half of the Marines consulted felt that the 5.56mm ammo was "fit for purpose"; there was a majority view that an intermediate round could solve these problems; and that if that wasn't possible, they tended towards entirely replacing 5.56mm with 7.62mm. This wasn't just due to the longer range, but to greater effectiveness even at short ranges (they have a new 7.62mm rifle, the L129A1, and really like it).

L129A1 in action.

[video=youtube;Y4qnxL_54Ls]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4qnxL_54Ls[/video]

[stanc]

Wolf has announced steel case FMJ Grendel with a 110 Grain FMJ similar to the 5.45 7N6 round. That means an air pocket in the nose for rapid yaw...

Yeah. It's too bad that AA refuses to do a gel test with the pre-production FMJ ammo, so we could see how quickly it yaws.

[bwaites]

Yeah. It's too bad that AA refuses to do a gel test with the pre-production FMJ ammo, so we could see how quickly it yaws.

So they could repeat the whole process when there is some change before the production ammo shows up? Yep, that makes a lot of financial and time sense!

Bill is like a long tailed cat in a room full of rockers as it is! He's been working on new barrel profiles for the Grendel, new iterations of the Beowulf, and finishing all the details of the .17 HMR and trying to bring Wayne Holt up to speed on the marketing side so that Wayne can work his magic.

Bill promised me that we would see gel testing, but I hope not until we have a finalized version of the bullet.

[Tony Williams]

L129A1 in action.

Interesting how fast he was firing - not exactly precision sharpshooting!

The Kiwis have bought the same gun only with a 20 inch barrel (instead of 16 inch) and with selective fire (rather than semi-auto).

[stanc]

So they could repeat the whole process when there is some change before the production ammo shows up? Yep, that makes a lot of financial and time sense!

Bill promised me that we would see gel testing, but I hope not until we have a finalized version of the bullet.

Do you seriously think that after all the money and time spent developing the 110gr FMJ, they would now change anything about the bullet? Talk about something that wouldn't make financial and time sense.

The projectile design and weight is one of the parameters we are exploring. We are looking towards the best weight for the carbines without compromising down range ability. Equally there is a trade to be made in respect to construction wrt cost, accuracy and terminal performance. Given the market for this, cost will be the driver.

...we completely expect that the 110 grain FMJ will be the bullet used...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_453/20963...1#i1724603

[JASmith]

Stan,

Recall that we had a long discussion on this topic in the "Testing, Testing" thread.

Bottom Line: There's a whole lot of sound fiscal, marketing, and reputation needs that promote a certain reluctance to prematurely test or to release the results of development testing.

Let's give Bill the space he needs to grow things.

[stanc]

There's a whole lot of sound fiscal, marketing, and reputation needs that promote a certain reluctance to prematurely test or to release the results of development testing.

Oh, balderdash. (Always wanted to use that word. )

There's no such thing as premature testing. Testing is necessary to either validate the design, or show the need for changes.

If (as Bill noted in the quoted post above) terminal performance is a concern, they will have to conduct gel tests anyway. I see no reason to not publish the results just as they did a few years ago with the developmental 123gr Sierra MatchKing.