Optimized Caliber

[LRRPF52]

Roger that Tony. 5.56 carbines and rifles are limited in effective range in the hands of Joe tentpeg. This is why it makes even more sense for a Grendel LMG, DMR, and SASS family of calibers/weapons, to cover the longer distances for dismounts. The 5.56 NATO LMG concept never really made a lot of sense to anyone.

One aspect that would make the Grendel LMG less of a pig is a lower cyclic rate, in conjunction with a constant-recoil system that allows faster on-target results for even an entry-level soldier with minimal training.

With Grendel LMG's DMR's, and SASS rifles built around the cartridge, we wouldn't be limited by the 50k psi bolt thrust capacity of the current AR15, so a 130gr load would do really well from all those weapons. The Mk46 and Mk48 could be transitional platforms for the caliber change, with a feed tray cover, feed tray, and barrel swap.

[JASmith]

... - but they found that it was the M249 which was being left behind in favour of a MK48 and M240 combination....

You may say that this is all in the mind but I doubt that, on the basis of some of the first-hand reports I've heard. Even if it is, I wouldn't dismiss too quickly a factor which has such a powerful effect on combat morale.

Would the decisions be the same if one or both of the MK48 and M240 were chambered for the Grendel?

It is said that morale is a weapon in its own right. The last thing one wants is a soldier who feels his weapon is useless. At the extremes, that can happen with ineffective ammo or heavy ammo that doesn't allow enough rounds to be carried. It is probably why we don't see many .50 BMGs used in this role.

One thing is true -- the Grendel round is lighter than the 7.62 NATO. Also, as you know, many of us argue that the other side either won't see the difference in effectiveness or the improved ability to hit with the Grendel will make him less comfortable. That would be a good thing...

[Tony Williams]

The 5.56 NATO LMG concept never really made a lot of sense to anyone.

The BA didn't have one before Iraq - they had an IAR instead (L86 LSW). As a result of the close-range fighting in Iraq they decided they needed the ability to put down a higher volume of fire, so they bought the Minimi in short-barrelled Para form with a telescoping stock. Opinions as to its effective range vary between 200 and 300 metres...

[LRRPF52]

I recall reading about what an abortion the L86LSW was when I was a kid in the 1980's. I carried the M249E2, and Para-SAW quite a bit myself. I would say that M855 is effective out to 200-300m in the hands of most soldiers. With optics and experience, that can be extended to 500m, but a 62gr pill isn't ideal really past 300m.

The 77gr Mk262 in the hands of a well-trained shooter can be reasonably effective out to 650m from a free-floated gun with decent optics.

The SAW's biggest problem is that it is way too bulky & heavy for what it is, and it isn't reliable, being based on the AK piston, bolt carrier, and bolt in a short sheet steel receiver that beats itself apart like an AK. The SAW can become a liability really quick. They did a PIP (Product-Improved Program) on it, supposedly reenforcing the receiver, along with the external addition of a telestock. The US & UK could put pressure on each other to fix this problem, because FN really dropped the ball when they made the Minimi.

From my viewpoint, a Squad-Level LMG needs to push a 130gr high-SD projectile at a decent velocity, so that it is effective out to 800m on point targets with optics, and really shines from 300-600m. With such a weapon, I would never need an attached GPMG team with a 7.62 belt-fed pig.

[Tony Williams]

The L86A1 had various problems, but it went through HK's magic repair shop and is now a decent weapon. It is very accurate and the long barrel means it can squeeze all there is to get from the 5.56mm cartridge. It's still shorter than an M16.

[LRRPF52]

The L86A1 had various problems, but it went through HK's magic repair shop and is now a decent weapon. It is very accurate and the long barrel means it can squeeze all there is to get from the 5.56mm cartridge. It's still shorter than an M16.

There's no way you can have a viable LSW that is 30rd mag-fed, and especially not one that prevents you from elevating while in the prone because of the mag.



With a 20rd mag chambered in Grendel, it could make a nice SASS platform if the barrel is floated, as it appears to be at least in the fore-end area on the L86A2. The trigger link would need to be modeled after the DSR-1 to be light, but they are finicky to field conditions and need tuning & lots of TLC.

There's not much worse than a dead trigger, or firing without the trigger being pulled.

[Tony Williams]

There's no way you can have a viable LSW that is 30rd mag-fed

Tell that to the Marines :p

[LRRPF52]

Tell that to the Marines :p

They've told it to me...if you mean Royal Marines. If you mean USMC, don't get me started again. We have another book-long thread on "USMC Adopts new IAR" The feeling is the same from Marines who have deployed with both IAR and SAW. They preferred the SAW for firepower...imagine that.

[LRRPF52]

Check this out:

[video=youtube;RFmtn670RqU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFmtn670RqU&feature=g-all-u[/video]

Rockin' the Mk46 & 240. Most guys can't handle a 240 like that, just FYI. It really takes a man to run that pig.

[stanc]

Stan,
Just thought I would let you know Cris Murray is going to get his chance with the army and the 7x46 very soon.
He has AR10 carbines for testing now and some of the parts for the GPMG that he wants to replace the M240 with.

Heh, heh. Apparently you read the following post on 68forums:

http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.ph...post319057

The article Harrison linked to is from April 2010 and says nothing about "a chance with the Army."

<chuckle> I just realized woohoo = Harrison. Only took me a year to figure it out. :o

[woohoo]

<chuckle> I just realized woohoo = Harrison. Only took me a year to figure it out. :o

I have to come here in disguise or everyone is lobbing frags in my direction