New Cartridge Developments and Implications for Dismounted Infantry Soldiers

[cory]

If a steel core bullet best meets the Grunt's needs, then by all means lets load them up with some steel core bullets.

I think what Variable was concerned with, and it is a perfectly valid concern, is that we may be going to a steel core bullet at the expense of the Grunt. The latter is not okay.

[stanc]

The LSAT 5.56mm cases are a little less than 0.5" diameter, ~20% fatter than brass cased 5.56 NATO, which would make the height and width of a 30-rd LSAT magazine comparable to a 30-rd 7.62 NATO or .45 ACP magazine. That might be a bit too bulky for some people's taste. (And keep in mind, 6.5mm CT rounds would be even fatter...)

Came across this pic showing 5.56mm and 7.62mm LSAT rounds:


That gives a rough idea of the size that 6.5mm CT ammo would be.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Stan, you always come up with great photos!

[LRRPF52]

Yeah. I'm wondering just what all is wrong with it. I mean, I have to think it has one or more problems we're not privy to.

Otherwise, if it's as marvelous as we're being told, why hasn't it been adopted and fielded, already?

They don't just field the stuff overnight. LSAT is in the field proofing in combat test unit stages, to include testing up at Greeley, Alaska. They've already done at least one test platoon iteration up there for the extreme cold weather trials, and have done a 2-year operational test and evaluation program with a group of Infantrymen at Fort Benning.

This thing introduces changes so significant, that it forced them to re-look at MTO&E. All the soldiers that have used it favor it over the SAW, from the unsolicited reports I've been seeing. The SAW's days are numbered I think, which would be a heaven-send for any dismounted combat arms unit. The LMG itself weighs only 9.4lbs, and the ammo is 40% lighter.

They've been using both SS109/M855 and M855A1 projectiles in the Cased Telescoping cartridges. In 2012, it had already reached Technology Readiness Level 7, with 8 prototypes functioning superbly in field tests at Benning to the tune of 25,000 rounds.

The guys who have experience on the SAW who have been testing LSAT have fallen in love with it, and don't ever want to lug the SAW around again, or deal with its constant malfunctions.

[LRRPF52]

If the LMG only weighs 9.4lbs, a carbine with a belt-fed mechanism could weigh what an M4 does. With the right configuration of the weapon, you could have an Adaptable Weapon System with 50-100rds on the gun as the norm. Magazines don't really appeal to me with the capabilities LSAT brings to the table and the mag-fed carbine design concept they show is much bulkier than the LMG.

Why ruin a good thing? The logical approach for now would be to pursue a 6.5mm LMG, and take it toe-to-toe with M240L and PKM's to show what we already know.

Drop the SAW and M240 like bad habits in the same move as they build the production lines up for the 6.5mm projectiles. Leave M4's with the M4A2 program upgrades, and let units start to see that this system could make the assault rifle obsolete. I can tell you right now that the first time more senior NCO's and soldiers with combat experience get their hands on a 9.4lb LMG with ammo that weighs 40% less than current 5.56, lightbulbs are going to start going off.

I can hear even the PSG right now. "Hell, with a shorter barrel, I could carry one of these and not think twice about it!"

Squad Leaders and Team Leaders will be thinking the same thing. Biggest question for me right now is what will happen with Grenadiers.

[cory]

I get what you're saying here, man. I'll just ask one question. Do you want to clear a house/compound/block with 6 to 24 Grunts, who ALL have open bolt, fully automatic weapons?

[stanc]

If the LMG only weighs 9.4lbs, a carbine with a belt-fed mechanism could weigh what an M4 does. With the right configuration of the weapon, you could have an Adaptable Weapon System with 50-100rds on the gun as the norm. Magazines don't really appeal to me with the capabilities LSAT brings to the table...

Why ruin a good thing? The logical approach for now would be to pursue a 6.5mm LMG, and take it toe-to-toe with M240L and PKM's to show what we already know.

Drop the SAW and M240 like bad habits in the same move as they build the production lines up for the 6.5mm projectiles. Leave M4's with the M4A2 program upgrades, and let units start to see that this system could make the assault rifle obsolete. I can tell you right now that the first time more senior NCO's and soldiers with combat experience get their hands on a 9.4lb LMG with ammo that weighs 40% less than current 5.56, lightbulbs are going to start going off.

I can hear even the PSG right now. "Hell, with a shorter barrel, I could carry one of these and not think twice about it!"

Squad Leaders and Team Leaders will be thinking the same thing.

First, let me say I do like the idea of a belt-fed weapon for every infantryman. But, I question if the leadership would go for it, since those at higher levels historically have been conservative and somewhat resistant to change.

Also, I doubt that a 6.5mm LSAT LMG will be nearly as light as the 5.56mm version. Depending upon what performance is required, a 6.5mm LMG may be nearly as heavy as the 7.62mm version, which has an estimated weight of 18 lbs. Even if you can cut a couple pounds off the weight of a carbine, how many of those platoon sergeants, squad leaders and team leaders are going to want to lug around a 14-16 lb weapon? :eek:

One other thing: I don't know how close to your 0.550 BC can be achieved in a practical, lead-free bullet, but it seems certain that for maximum BC the 6.5mm projectile will be significantly longer than the current M80 ball round. Which means the 6.5mm CT cartridge will likely be about the same (2.25") length and weight as 5.56 NATO.

Biggest question for me right now is what will happen with Grenadiers.

Follow the USMC lead and give them 6-shot, M32 grenade launchers?

[Variable]

I find such complaints about using "green" bullets a bit amusing. Everyone seems to forget that during the latter years of World War II, the standard combat load of the US military -- .30 M2AP -- had a "light green" projectile, with nearly full-length steel core, and very little lead.

Below, left: .30 M2AP bullet





Also, one of the bullets most admired by military small arms enthusiasts is that used in 5.45x39 ammo. It also is of "light green" construction, with a long steel core and minimal lead.





Going "green" in military bullets ain't necessarily a bad thing.

Like Cory said, my issue is with them ever bringing bullshit "environmental concerns" into the mix. When we put steel into ammo in WW2 it was only because it made sense in placing holes and killing people.

If they found a special fairy flower that was 100% lethal and flew straight and flat? Fine, even if it was "renewable".LOL I'd shoot fairy flowers all day, but only because they worked better. NOT because of any BS environmental concerns.

They need to pull their heads out of their a$$es on that stuff. Ivan and Chang don't care two squats about how "green" their bullets are, only that they can kill you with them.

Next they'll be grounding US aircraft to avoid CO2 emmisions...... Political Correctness will be the death of our nation.

[Variable]

They don't just field the stuff overnight. LSAT is in the field proofing in combat test unit stages, to include testing up at Greeley, Alaska. They've already done at least one test platoon iteration up there for the extreme cold weather trials, and have done a 2-year operational test and evaluation program with a group of Infantrymen at Fort Benning.

This thing introduces changes so significant, that it forced them to re-look at MTO&E. All the soldiers that have used it favor it over the SAW, from the unsolicited reports I've been seeing. The SAW's days are numbered I think, which would be a heaven-send for any dismounted combat arms unit. The LMG itself weighs only 9.4lbs, and the ammo is 40% lighter.

They've been using both SS109/M855 and M855A1 projectiles in the Cased Telescoping cartridges. In 2012, it had already reached Technology Readiness Level 7, with 8 prototypes functioning superbly in field tests at Benning to the tune of 25,000 rounds.

The guys who have experience on the SAW who have been testing LSAT have fallen in love with it, and don't ever want to lug the SAW around again, or deal with its constant malfunctions.

Only one quibble-- The 40% weight reduction (IIRC) was for caseless, and that isn't reliable yet (?). The cased telescoped was 12% lighter.

[Variable]

Came across this pic showing 5.56mm and 7.62mm LSAT rounds:


That gives a rough idea of the size that 6.5mm CT ammo would be.

Sweet!

Either load a 6.5 projo into the 7.62 case, or split the difference a little bit between the 5.56 and 7.62 cases.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Next they'll be grounding US aircraft to avoid CO2 emmisions...... Political Correctness will be the death of our nation.

Ha! Good one. Forget "radar signature." Much more important is "carbon footprint." :p

[Variable]

I get what you're saying here, man. I'll just ask one question. Do you want to clear a house/compound/block with 6 to 24 Grunts, who ALL have open bolt, fully automatic weapons?

If they used a GOOD 6.5 bullet with excellent penetration capabilities?

"Y'all go ahead, I'll stay behind this very thick concrete wall...." LOL!!!




Just kidding!

[stanc]

If they used a GOOD 6.5 bullet with excellent penetration capabilities?

"Y'all go ahead, I'll stay behind this very thick concrete wall...." LOL!!!

[LRRPF52]

LSAT is select fire and can easily be shot with controlled pairs with simple trigger discipline like any other constant recoil system. We already have been taking SAWs into the house since the SAW was adopted, it just traces in the Fire Team because of the drag it causes a soldier with all that weight. LSAT takes that away, so you aren't as concerned about who is in the Fire Team flow.

The ammo cost and ability of soldiers to carry so much more ammo will change things.

The biggest obstacles are going to be South Carolina Congressional districts with the FN manufacturing plant.

That USMC rotary grenade launcher is garbage by the way. Major reliability problems and complications with reloading them. They don't work in a field environment very well, but have been kept us truck grenade launchers by units who have access to them. For dismounting, they were a major failure.

[cory]

...We already have been taking SAWs into the house since the SAW was adopted,...

Please don't remind me of this s***. HAHA

I'd rather clear a room with 2 known tangos with an M4, than clear a room that might have and might not have a tango, with the SAW. Going into a room I'd fully expect to be using the SAW as a club. They were bad enough about not firing when you pulled the trigger especially then moving as violently as you do moving through a house, forget about it.

Not to mention that, at least when I was in, it was a rule that the SAW gunner was never the 1 man (didn't enter the room first), because of its lack of reliability.

Sorry about the slight tangent, back to a caseless 130gr .510+ BC combat load.

[Variable]

LSAT is select fire and can easily be shot with controlled pairs with simple trigger discipline like any other constant recoil system. We already have been taking SAWs into the house since the SAW was adopted, it just traces in the Fire Team because of the drag it causes a soldier with all that weight. LSAT takes that away, so you aren't as concerned about who is in the Fire Team flow.

The ammo cost and ability of soldiers to carry so much more ammo will change things.

The biggest obstacles are going to be South Carolina Congressional districts with the FN manufacturing plant.

That USMC rotary grenade launcher is garbage by the way. Major reliability problems and complications with reloading them. They don't work in a field environment very well, but have been kept us truck grenade launchers by units who have access to them. For dismounting, they were a major failure.

Just funning.

I couldn't help it once Cory put a vision in my head of everybody having a beltfed with a 1000 rounds of ammo....

Sorry about the slight tangent, back to a caseless 130gr .510+ BC combat load.

Ditto. That would rock!

[stanc]

Sorry about the slight tangent, back to a caseless 130gr .510+ BC combat load.

Ditto. That would rock!

Yeah, but question is, is such a military ball projectile feasible to make?

Swedish lead-core, 6.5mm Ball weighs ~140gr, and has a fairly high length to diameter ratio (L/D ~4.9).




The steel-core AP looks to be identical in L/D, but weighs only 112gr, considerably lighter than the hypothetical 130gr bullet.




And don't forget, it'll be necessary to also develop a companion Tracer, which typically are longer -- and often lighter -- than Ball rounds.

[cory]

I don't understand why we need an AP rifle round.

Or why the tracer would be a consideration at this point. We'll shape the tracer to best fit the best possible combat bullet. Speaking of which has the 5.56 tracer been modified since the M193 was developed?

[stanc]

I don't understand why we need an AP rifle round.

I wasn't clear. I mentioned the Swedish 6.5mm AP bullet only because its steel core construction makes it weigh about the same as a lead-free Ball projectile with the same L/D ratio.

However, it's a safe bet that if 6.5mm CT ammo were to be adopted, at some point in the future an armor-piercing load would be developed and fielded, just as has been done with current and previous rifle/machine gun ammo.

Or why the tracer would be a consideration at this point. We'll shape the tracer to best fit the best possible combat bullet.

That could be a short-sighted and costly error. For example, M855 Ball only needs a 1:9 rifling twist, but M856 Tracer needs 1:7 twist. If all 5.56mm weapons had been fitted with 1:9 twist barrels to stabilize the Ball round, it would've been necessary to do a very expensive retrofit to be able to use Tracer ammo. It's called, PLAN AHEAD.

Speaking of which has the 5.56 tracer been modified since the M193 was developed?

Yes, most certainly. M196 Tracer was adopted for use with M193 Ball, and replaced by M856 Tracer with adoption of M855 Ball.

Below, l. to r.: M193 Ball; M196 Tracer; M855 Ball; M856 Tracer; Mk262

[LRRPF52]

The M855A1 projectile configuration already has barrier defeating properties with an exposed steel penetrator, which doesn't cause any problems for the LSAT since there is no feed ramp and pressures with the CT ammo are different, with a more efficient burn for more speed.

The 855A1 can also be configured with different bases and heads for the AP and tracer, since 855A1 has a copper jacket, a copper slug base, and a steel penetrator head. They also have a 7.62 LSAT with a larger case, but it is still smaller and much lighter than linked 7.62 NATO.