Dutch SF to buy .300 BLK carbines

[stanc]

http://www.janes.com/article/52727/dutch...in-300-blk

[am4966]

Hmm, why?

[LRRPF52]

Another tool, especially for very short duration mission profiles where low signature is important.

Just from a training standpoint, subsonic suppressed offers a lot of benefits for shooting indoors when doing your CQB work, Overpressure in the house is horrendous on the inner ear, even when wearing muffs, because of mastoid process resonance.

Some guys get inner ear problems, especially if they work with demo a lot in the house for explosive breaching, combined with all the supersonic overpressure from carbines indoors. It can take its toll bigtime. I have a buddy who was an SF Engineer Sergeant and Instructor at SF's CQB course at Bragg, who got Menier's disease. He's pretty much disabled for life and started having a lot of issues before he retired.

[am4966]

Another tool, especially for very short duration mission profiles where low signature is important.

Just from a training standpoint, subsonic suppressed offers a lot of benefits for shooting indoors when doing your CQB work, Overpressure in the house is horrendous on the inner ear, even when wearing muffs, because of mastoid process resonance.

Some guys get inner ear problems, especially if they work with demo a lot in the house for explosive breaching, combined with all the supersonic overpressure from carbines indoors. It can take its toll bigtime. I have a buddy who was an SF Engineer Sergeant and Instructor at SF's CQB course at Bragg, who got Menier's disease. He's pretty much disabled for life and started having a lot of issues before he retired.

I understand it's another tool and about the subs being used suppressed. But they are only getting 244,000 sub ammo compared to over a million ball ammo. So that's where I get the why, I knitter they can buy as they go, but I'd think they would have gotten more sub ami since that's where the 300 shines. So I'll refer to your opinion on this with your knowledge, since I respect you and what you say.

In retrospect the 244,000 rnds of subs is a pretty fair amount lol

[LRRPF52]

Just initial ammo purchases. They'll be buying more as noted in the article. Also keep in mind that they aren't the only SOF unit using 300 BLK, they just seem to be the only one I know of that has advertised it, or slipped and let their purchasing details be made public.

Russians have been using 9x39 for decades now in the VAL.

[Klem]

If you have ever seen the results of subsonic on flesh you will know it is a poor substitute to high velocity. Plus suppressed 300BLk is louder than suppressed 9mm. BLK is essentially an accurate .45cal (using only 2/3 the available peak pressure). Good luck to the Dutch, and the guy with the bright yellow watchband in the photo.

Indoor CQB is not so bad if wearing a helmet and double ears. Pressure penetrates the skull to damage the brain and hearing. One of our guys contracted mild epilepsy from this sort of thing. Safety in training is no reason to go 300BLK in operation however.

[sneaky one]

Klem, could you reiterate , and ?? the last paragraph for all?

So, slow speed is worse than High speed on flesh, ? That's what I thought when I went to higher speed GMX pills.
Actually the last sentence. No reason--- to go 300blk

What was the true meaning there?

Geez, nobody wants the epilepsy tag.

I'm not pee ing on any caliber, just would like all things clearly defined for all. Thanks man.

[Klem]

Klem, could you reiterate , and ?? the last paragraph for all?

So, slow speed is worse than High speed on flesh, ? That's what I thought when I went to higher speed GMX pills.
Actually the last sentence. No reason--- to go 300blk

What was the true meaning there?

Geez, nobody wants the epilepsy tag.

I'm not pee ing on any caliber, just would like all things clearly defined for all. Thanks man.

My comments relate to 52's comments regarding subsonic suppressed being less damaging on the ears during CQB training than supersonic. Yes it is, but that is no reason to adopt it an operational calibre.

My thoughts also relate to my experience with this calibre. I have more experience with 300BLK than 65Gr having used it since they first came out. If you run subsonic 300BLK simulations on Quickload you will see that the peak pressure is only 2/3 the available before being deemed over-pressure or dangerous. Most loading is done at pressures approaching maximum whereas 300BLK subsonic loads are much tamer than the calibre is capable of. If you load more powder the rounds become supersonic. If you look for heavier projectiles (than 240gr) it becomes problematic because they are too long to load and/or don't exist. It's just physical limitations of lead and mass. I suppose depleted uranium might get you a heavier projectile but... The heaviest off-the-shelf projectile in 30cal is the 240SMK. Load that to highest possible subonic, say 1050fps and there's still 1/3 of the potential chamber/peak unused.

Couple that with the tendency of slow heavy projectiles to overpenetrate and your under-powered load to start with ends up laser beaming through the human target and out the back taking its precious distruptive energy with it. No lateral temporary wound cavity that we see with supersonic imacts. Shot placement becomes far more critical, as does the potential for collateral wounding. Note the recent Lindt Cafe siege in Sydney with one of the hostages killed by a stray 5.56 AR15 ricochet from the rescuers. 300BLK increases the potential for that in a crowded airplane or room.

The roos (kangaroos) I have shot with various subsonic loads all exit/through-and-through whereas supersonic drops them dead on the spot. Half the animals hit with subsonics hop off to die somewhere else. The only round I have found to do anything more than laser beam through is the 220SMK which tumbles through the animal. You hear a slap followed by a zing and the round ricochets off somewhere else. Large roos are a reasonable analogue for humans; same shape and mass of flesh.

There is a bullet that has just hit the street over your way by a new company called Blackoutbullets.com, a 220gr hollow point. I have yet to try them. The dedicated 220 subs by Outlaw State LLC do not expand and LeHigh's 30cal subsonic offerings offerings are too light to guarantee cycling and maximise weight potential. No other company sells or loads subsonic 300BLK rounds for flesh. They use existing match rounds that are great for punching paper only.

SF does not need underpowered firearms with a tendency to over-penetrate. Coupled iwth this is that loaded (SF do not handload their own) ammunition has not kept pace with this new calibre. Off-the-shelf loaded subsonics will not do the tasks justice. 300BLK will be no better for SF work than 9mm subs, which burn less powder and are quieter.

What the Dutch will also appreciate in time is the weight of 300BLK ammunition vs. 223 for no more ability to kill. We are talking about up to 6kg for a 300rds load-out. Once they start carrying that up and down mountains the sexy calibre will wear off pretty quickly. Then figure out that for the same weight of ammo they can carry 7.62 which has more range and ability to kill and they will doubt their decision. The weight of 7.62 and a 300BLK cartridge is almost identical. The majority of a cartridges weight is in the projectile, not in difference between powder and cases. Coupled with that is the rainbow trajectory of both supersonic and subsonic BLK's compared to a flatter shooting 223 and they suddenly realise they are getting more misses and have to focus more on range estimation. Their max point blank range zeros are now shorter than 223 which means less lethality.

But, the 300BLK can do two things with its main utility being subsonic. Maybe they can keep their 223's and one or two guys with 300 uppers in the pack and with some sub ammo in case they need it for shrinkage.

[VASCAR2]

Klem:

Just curious if you know what kind of 5.56 projectile was used by rescuers in Sydney. My Police Dept. was very concerned about fratricide and issued a 55 grain JSP Winchester. The first load was just a standard hunting bullet (cup & core) then later we were issued Federal 55 grain JSP TRU bonded core. We had several M-16A-1's in the field so the decision was made to issue 55 grain bullets. Commercial 55 grain FMJ or M-193 was used for most training. All the officers carried some FMJ which would have been used in the event our limited supply of JSP was used. Over concerns dealing with active shooters especially in schools my Department pulled all our "0" buckshot from the street and we were only to use issued Foster 12 gauge Slugs. The slugs purchased over the last few years were usually reduced recoil Federal or Winchester 12 gauge slugs.

My Department was one of the first agencies to adopt the 9 MM model 39 which were initially loaded with 123 grain FMJ. In an effort to reduce over penetration the Department tried some 100 grain FMJ. This didn't prove to be any better and since the politicians wouldn't approve hollow points the Troops were issued a Federal 95 grain flat nose JSP at 1300 FPS. This load was better but had inconsistent performance. In the early 80's my agency adopted the +P+ 115 grain JHP which is a lower penetrating round. This JHP round proved very effective on the streets and was used till the Department transitioned to 40 S&W cartridge.

[biodsl]

Sounds like VASCAR2 and klem both remember the bad-old-days of the 9mm. The late 60's and 70's are replete with stories of how ineffective the round was as a fight-stopper with FMJ ammo. I agree with klem that a .30 caliber FMJ at subsonic velocities would likely be just as ineffective. However, with specialty ammunition, .300 BO subsonic rounds can perform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDym4GXrPRw

Remove the logistics of a NATO battlefield and I can understand this adoption. Ball ammo for training, supersonic for war engagements, subsonic specialty ammo for counter-terrorist and hostage rescue. You have one weapons system and one manual of arms that can cover a variety of tactical needs. Same magazines, same bolts. And your 5.56 weapon is identical except for caliber.

[stanc]

Just curious if you know what kind of 5.56 projectile was used by rescuers in Sydney. My Police Dept. was very concerned about fratricide and issued a 55 grain JSP Winchester.

My Department was one of the first agencies to adopt the 9 MM model 39 which were initially loaded with 123 grain FMJ. In an effort to reduce over penetration the Department tried some 100 grain FMJ.

I've always been amused by this concern with overpenetration and collateral damage, especially when it comes to handguns.

According to all of the statistical data I've seen, the majority of handgun rounds fired by police completely miss the intended target. Those misses are traveling at full velocity, rendering them far more hazardous to bystanders than rounds that pass through the body.

Note that the Sydney hostage was apparently killed by a miss, not an overpenetrating bullet.

[Klem]

Sounds like VASCAR2 and klem both remember the bad-old-days of the 9mm. The late 60's and 70's are replete with stories of how ineffective the round was as a fight-stopper with FMJ ammo. I agree with klem that a .30 caliber FMJ at subsonic velocities would likely be just as ineffective. However, with specialty ammunition, .300 BO subsonic rounds can perform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDym4GXrPRw

Remove the logistics of a NATO battlefield and I can understand this adoption. Ball ammo for training, supersonic for war engagements, subsonic specialty ammo for counter-terrorist and hostage rescue. You have one weapons system and one manual of arms that can cover a variety of tactical needs. Same magazines, same bolts. And your 5.56 weapon is identical except for caliber.

Interesting video if you are into bad dudes with beards shooting pigs. Even their ballistic gel was twice the width of a human torso with all their rounds over-penetrating. Unconvinced it is related to our discussion about the potential for the 300 use in the SF role against human targets.

[VASCAR2]

I've always been amused by this concern with overpenetration and collateral damage, especially when it comes to handguns.

According to all of the statistical data I've seen, the majority of handgun rounds fired by police completely miss the intended target. Those misses are traveling at full velocity, rendering them far more hazardous to bystanders than rounds that pass through the body.

Note that the Sydney hostage was apparently killed by a miss, not an overpenetrating bullet.

Stan, I agree but a lot of what happened in my agency was driven by Politics and people who really didn't have a clue. The people who were the most knowledgeable were rarely listened to let alone have the the influence to make the best decisions.

In the 60's, 70's and early 80's there were a lot of really sharp ex military with true leadership qualities plus real experts. Unfortunately that core group of people are long gone and being political connected and politically correct is what is in vogue today.

[Klem]

Guys,

Yes, it would be interesting to know what type of 5.56 ammo was used by the rescuers in the Lindt siege but this much is public record from the inquest;

* 6 fragments of a police bullet or bullets killed hostage Katrina Dawson (one hitting a major artery). She bled-out at the scene.

* 5 shotgun cartridges were discharged by Monis (lone gunman) during the siege on four separate occasions.

* 21 other cartridges of various sizes were found on Monis’ body.

* 11 distraction grenades were thrown into the cafe by police.

* 22 shots were fired by two police officers, with Monis firing two cartridges.

Looks like the round or rounds that killed the hostage were a ricochet. The type of round used may never be released to the public and bearing in mind this forum is public access that may be as much as we ever know.

[VASCAR2]

Thanks Klem, I was curious if it was fragments or a solid projectile which struck the victim. It is very bad when a major artery is it. Still shows how much damage can be done by shrapnel and bullet fragments on soft tissue even without a pressure wave from explosion.