New Marine Corps weapon to replace SAW

[LRRPF52]

Who cares about metallic cases when you have this:

[stanc]

Who cares about metallic cases when you have this:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-co...V5UVry.png

Who cares? Well, primarily devout fans of 6.5 Grendel and other metallic cartridges which have been proposed as alternatives to the two current NATO rounds.

But, isn't it a bit premature to dismiss metallic cartridges, when CT ammo and weapons are still only in the development stage, and have not yet been fielded?

[cory]

LRRPF52 I wonder why they haven't included pistol cartridges in this development program. It would make the 5.7mm much more competitive.

[LRRPF52]

LRRPF52 I wonder why they haven't included pistol cartridges in this development program. It would make the 5.7mm much more competitive.

The way the mechanism feeds and extracts would make a pistol really bulky.

[dobrodan]

Also, pistol ammunition is usually not what you run out of, as it is a back-up-weapon.

If you want to save weight, leave the pistol at home...

[cory]

Would a pistol still be nothing more than a backup weapon if you were sending 62gr projectiles down range at 2000+ fps instead of a big slow slug?

[ahillock]

Sweden figured this out +100 years ago, that the 6.5mm round is one of the best projectiles for military needs. I wouldn't need millions of DoD funding to tell them that either. Pretty simple actually if they would leave the politics and kickbacks out of it.

[JASmith]

Would a pistol still be nothing more than a backup weapon if you were sending 62gr projectiles down range at 2000+ fps instead of a big slow slug?

If the mechanism LRRPF52 refers to gets changed or another less bulky action is implemented, then that 5.56 LSAT round could find use as a pistol round too.

That would also have interesting consequences.

[stanc]

The way the mechanism feeds and extracts would make a pistol really bulky.

Indeed. There's a good illustration of the mechanism @ 1:23-1:43 in the video below.

[video=youtube;WlM8IHij6Hs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlM8IHij6Hs[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlM8IHij6Hs



I wonder if a practical, self-loading pistol is even possible with the CT cartridge configuration. Maybe it would cause a rebirth of the revolver, with cartridges pre-loaded into quick-change cylinders, sort of like was done with old cap-and-ball guns?

[video=youtube;VeqLL2xuSQs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeqLL2xuSQs[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeqLL2xuSQs

[stanc]

Would a pistol still be nothing more than a backup weapon if you were sending 62gr projectiles down range at 2000+ fps instead of a big slow slug?

If going into combat, would you prefer a handgun firing 62gr slugs @ 2000 fps, or a shoulder weapon firing 123gr bullets @ 3000 fps?

[dobrodan]

Would a pistol still be nothing more than a backup weapon if you were sending 62gr projectiles down range at 2000+ fps instead of a big slow slug?

Yes it would. A pistol is something you use to fight your way back to your rifle.

A PDW/SMG would be something else, as that would be a lot more controllable and accurate.

I have found myself avoiding to wear a pistol in the field (unless carrying a MG, sniper-rifle or CG84mm), as it typically only brings extra weight and cumbersomeness without really adding to my capabilities. I would much rather bring a mag or two extra for my rifle.

I like pistols, but IMO, they are of limited relevance for infantry in the field. The best backup-weapon is the one in the hands of your buddy right next to you.

[cory]

If going into combat, would you prefer a handgun firing 62gr SS109 @ 2000 fps, or a shoulder weapon firing 123gr bullets @ 3000 fps?

Fixed that for you.

I'll take both!

[cory]

Yes it would. A pistol is something you use to fight your way back to your rifle.

A PDW/SMG would be something else, as that would be a lot more controllable and accurate.

I have found myself avoiding to wear a pistol in the field (unless carrying a MG, sniper-rifle or CG84mm), as it typically only brings extra weight and cumbersomeness without really adding to my capabilities. I would much rather bring a mag or two extra for my rifle.

I like pistols, but IMO, they are of limited relevance for infantry in the field. The best backup-weapon is the one in the hands of your buddy right next to you.

The question was never an or, it was an in addition to.

I'd tend to agree with you assessment for a rifleman carrying an m4, operating in rural environments. However, when operating in a tight urban environment I completely disagree. And this is all assuming the pistol we're talking about is the M9 carrying 9mm fmj ammunition.

Now if I had a pistol firing ammunition that has the same performance as the current ammunition being carried has at 300 yards and beyond. (The pistol would obviously require a round that is much lower than 62ksi). This type of ability would force a rethink of the way we utilize our weapons in much the same way NVGs have changed the battlefield. I would much rather be on a battlefield where mortars/arty has lit up the enemy with illumination rounds than run with nvgs on. However, that doesn't mean I won't utilize NVGs when they are the best option or I don't have an option.

[JASmith]

Dobradan's point is on the mark.

I would add, however, that pistols are carried because even the 1911 on 45 ACP is light enough that it can be carried without thought or inference with one's duties.

The problem is that hit probabilities are even lower in high stress situations than is the case with weapons designed for two-hand support and shoulder contact.

That means that the weapon having a modest hit probability is generally heavy and bulky enough that it is all too frequently not worn on the body when doing vehicle maintenance, loading artilllery and so on.

[stanc]

Now if I had a pistol firing ammunition that has the same performance as the current ammunition being carried has at 300 yards and beyond. (The pistol would obviously require a round that is much lower than 62ksi). This type of ability would force a rethink of the way we utilize our weapons in much the same way NVGs have changed the battlefield.

Explain/elaborate, please. I don't see how a SCHV pistol would (or conceivably could) materially change things, even assuming that leadership would see fit to take the unprecedented action of making a handgun standard issue to all riflemen.

[LRRPF52]

Let's keep it on track, if you really want to for the USMC SAW replacement.

Pistol discussions would require another thread, which we've done before.

My position on it is that pistols are about useless in legacy chamberings, other than Stateside MP work, for some investigators, and very limited applications in the SOF side.

A small PDW that is as close to a pistol, but has extendable stock capability, with a more potent cartridge makes sense for those who have primary duties that require them to employ a more important weapon system or device.

[stanc]

No one has ever claimed that the M27 link would work if you just took a pair of pliers to them.

Of course the links need to be designed specifically for the Grendel.

The only reason that it hasn't been done is that there is no business justification for doing the work.

I understand that getting links developed and manufactured would require a whole lot more $$$ than any small business would willingly invest purely on speculation.

However, the profit motive does not apply to private individuals for whom shooting is only a hobby, although it's unlikely that any are wealthy enough to afford to undertake such a project.

Still, with all the Grendel enthusiasts who have spent beaucoup bucks building 6.5 G rifles over the last 10+ years, some of whom are ardent proponents of the cartridge for military use, it seems like at least one or two of them would've either:

a. Grendelized an M249/Mk46 LMG, using RPD belts (or possibly M68 links).
b. Grendelized an M27 IAR (or built a comparable IAR on another platform).

I mean, if Cris Murray can do it to demonstrate the military potential of the 7mm UIAC, surely there are Horde members who can do the same with 6.5 Grendel?

[Mike Wood]

What is this thread even about? Ammo, pistols, some new USMC weapon, ammo links, yada yada yada...geez

[VASCAR2]

If anyone develops a linked disintegrating belt light machine gun in 6.5 Grendel the chances are Serbia will have at least explored the concept seeing how they are adopting the 6.5 Grendel for their military. I'd be surprised if Prvi Partizan isn't involed in testing the 6.5 Grendel in a light machine gun.

[dobrodan]

Even if the belt is not disintegrating, there are no law that says the belt can only be divided into 50rd sections. 10rd sections is possible, and would not be bothersome at all.