PDWs...and other small arms.

[Lightning8]

Just buy the SIG MPX 9mm to go along with the SIG 320 9mm and be done with it.

[TOU]

Well, the Beo, .458, and .450 are all surely fight stoppers out to 200, but carrying ammo for them is not exactly comfortable. Remember, only 10 rounds to a mag, so even 10 mags only gets you 100 rounds of ammo!

BUT...boy do they make people drop what they are doing and come look!

I suspect that if you were clearing a room, the first couple shots would make everyone there rethink their options!

I had understood that the .50 Beo was task specific in its design. I.E. That it was specifically designed for one reason & one reason only...shoot into & stop engine blocks of party crashes over in Afghanistan & Iraq...in a lightweight AR platform. Not necessarily shoot individuals let alone in close quarters. So I was told...

[Klem]

Ammunition weight is an important criterion in the PDW debate. It needs to compact and light, including the carried ammunition.

The venerable .45ACP firing 230gn projectiles can be eliminated for this reason alone however its impact on flesh relative to supersonic rounds renders it out of the question. Similarly the .50Beo and the 300 Blackout. A 300rd load-out is too heavy relative to 5.56.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Not necessarily shoot individuals let alone in close quarters. So I was told...

Although it DID fold in half an enemy combatant in AFG when the round took a chunk out of his spine.

[TOU]

Although it DID fold in half an enemy combatant in AFG when the round took a chunk out of his spine.

Don't get me wrong...I imagine it is fine for "folding" enemy combatants & would think it was very effective. I was just told that it was not its original intended purpose or use when it was initially designed. That it was very task specific in its original design & intent...that is not you say it wouldn't have other uses & applications. Also that other calibers would be just fine for enemy combatants...maybe even preferred especially when it came to distance, weight, recoil & magazine capacity. But hey...I'm only an ACQ and whole heartily defer to those that have "been there, done that."

[n9nwo]

Some individuals -- including yours truly -- argue that the military should adopt a "true" PDW, like the B&T MP9 ( http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...1#post3894 ).

However, I recall reading in Infantry magazine back around 2004-2006, that the US Army had opted for a 10.5" barrel version of the M4A1 carbine for the personal defense requirement. (See attached photo of such a weapon being carried by a senior non-com in late 2007.)

Since Variable has been shooting a similar short-barrel carbine in 6.5 Grendel for some time, it would seem like a suitable option for a military PDW.

Look at the Tavor, especially the new X95 (vs. the SAR). Very easy to swap barrels which is done in the .300 BLK version. Everyone is doing 300 BLK due to being based on the same case as the .223 REM

For a 6.5 Grendel it would take having the rifle to have a AK (7.65x39) bolt. My guess is that is coming.

[Texas]

Assuming a personal defense weapon (PDW) is a class of compact magazine-fed, self-loading, firearm – essentially a hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine, retaining the compact size and ammunition capacity of the former while adding the stopping power, accuracy and penetration of the latter, there are only a small number of pistol rounds which would accomplish this goal such as the 5.7X28, 357 sig, 7.62X25, 4.6X30, and maybe one or two others.
Logistics can be simplified by combining functionality around ammunition calibers so that a single caliber can supply more troops -- so it would make logistics sense to use the existing rifle cartridge if it could be supplied in a sub-machine gun size package.
Designs such as the RRA LAR-PDS would allow for a folding or telescoping stock, reducing overall length by about 7 inches which would provide a PDW with an overall length of about 18 inches with an 11 inch barrel which would be 10 inches longer than the Berreta M9 with an increase in weight of 2.5 lbs. This PDW design would be shorter than an MP40, M3 grease gun, or MP5 and weigh less allowing for the capabilities to fire from inside a car, clearing a building, or anything else these venerable systems have been called to do.
If the weapon system were upgraded to the 6.5X39 cartridge, there is a good argument for extended capabilities, and for that matter an upgrade of the M4 system as well.

[LRRPF52]

A PDW needs to be so compact, it can be worn on the belt and forgotten about, without any snag hazards, while still addressing terminal performance that most pistol cartridges fail to do well at all. When looking at terminal performance studies of handgun cartridges across thousands of samples, you see a very high survivability rate with pistols, and not so with rifles. You're basically looking at around a 25% kill rate with handguns, and at least 65% with rifles.

Any straight-walled pistol cartridge simply doesn't have the speed/projectile weight to do the job. Any legacy 20th Century pistol cartridge should be excluded on that basis alone, in addition to the fact that they all have terrible effective ranges due to low mv and poor projectile shaping.

When you look at things like the 7.62x25 and other small, bottle-necked cartridges, things start to shift towards rifle performance. 9x25 Dillon is another example of a pistol cartridge that can spit a decent weight projectile at 2000fps or more.

Support MOS soldiers need a little box-shaped weapon that is unobtrusive, goes on their belt, and is out of the way throughout the day, but there if something goes horribly wrong (green on blue, Major Hassan type events, vehicle disabled outside the wire, etc.). We're talking something very small, but with a telescoping stock and flush magazine with a spare built into the frame. Something like the Magpul Folding Pocket Gun would be about perfect, in a bottle-necked higher velocity PDW cartridge.

We don't need pistols for most of the duty positions that carry pistols, because pistols are about worthless for pretty much everyone in the military except investigators and a few units in the SOF community, and the modern handgun/sidearm needs to be brought into the 21st Century as well, not stuck in the rut of the 20th Century.

[n9nwo]

Look at the Tavor X95 (SAR was the older model). It can be made into a PDW with a shorter barrel. Currently IWI has a 14" barrel in 300 BLK as well as a 9mm conversion kit. It is just a bit larger than most current PDW models on the market.

Nice thing is the Tavor is very modular.

[LRRPF52]

Tavor is too big for support troops who need to focus on their primary jobs without a magazine sticking out of the weapon.

A PDW needs to be able to be worn on a belt without being overly obtrusive and a snag hazard.

[cory]

If you're serious about doing this, then I think the P90 is about as small as can be accomplished while still retaining enough effectiveness Terminal/range.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a pistol seems to be useless until you go into a room and that POS saw jams or even if your M4 jams for that matter. I carry a pistol on a regular basis as a civilian. I've never needed to this date and odds are I'll never need it in the future (I certainly hope the need will never arise). However, if I ever need it and don't have it on me, I'll never need it again.

[BjornF16]

MP5 in 10mm?

[LRRPF52]

An improved 7.62x25 Tokarev, 9x25 Dillon, or 6.5 CBJ would fit the bill in that Magpul Folding Gun.

Much more projectile mass than 5.7x28, higher velocity, low recoil, effective range from 200-300m.

[stanc]

A PDW needs to be so compact, it can be worn on the belt and forgotten about...

Concur.

Any straight-walled pistol cartridge simply doesn't have the speed/projectile weight to do the job. Any legacy 20th Century pistol cartridge should be excluded on that basis alone...

Disagree. About 20 years ago I had some MagSafe 9x19 ammo that had 52gr and 60gr FMJ bullets w/muzzle velocities of ~2000 fps from a 4" barrel.

...in addition to the fact that they all have terrible effective ranges due to low mv and poor projectile shaping.

9x19 OAL is sufficient to permit a significant improvement in projectile shape:

When you look at things like the 7.62x25 and other small, bottle-necked cartridges, things start to shift towards rifle performance. 9x25 Dillon is another example of a pistol cartridge that can spit a decent weight projectile at 2000fps or more.

7.62x25 is interesting for its performance potential, and has OAL that would permit use of a spitzer projectile, but it is such a long cartridge that a double-stack magazine might be problematical for soldiers with smaller hands.





9x25 Dillon is also undesirably long. More importantly, it is significantly fatter than 9x19 and 7.62x25, which would adversely affect magazine capacity. Additionally, the cartridge OAL only allows use of very unstreamlined, stubby bullets.

Support MOS soldiers need a little box-shaped weapon that is unobtrusive, goes on their belt, and is out of the way throughout the day, but there if something goes horribly wrong (green on blue, Major Hassan type events, vehicle disabled outside the wire, etc.). We're talking something very small, but with a telescoping stock and flush magazine with a spare built into the frame. Something like the Magpul Folding Pocket Gun would be about perfect, in a bottle-necked higher velocity PDW cartridge.

I think the MagPul FPG is an intriguing concept, worth investigating for employment as a military PDW, although I do wonder if the design can be made "G.I.-proof."

[video=youtube;enzlTEysYVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enzlTEysYVU[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enzlTEysYVU

We don't need pistols for most of the duty positions that carry pistols, because pistols are about worthless for pretty much everyone in the military except investigators and a few units in the SOF community, and the modern handgun/sidearm needs to be brought into the 21st Century as well, not stuck in the rut of the 20th Century.

I fully agree.

[stanc]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a pistol seems to be useless until you go into a room and that POS saw jams or even if your M4 jams for that matter. I carry a pistol on a regular basis as a civilian. I've never needed to this date and odds are I'll never need it in the future (I certainly hope the need will never arise). However, if I ever need it and don't have it on me, I'll never need it again.

As a civilian, you have that option. However, outside of SOF operators, very few soldiers are armed with both a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

[Lightning8]

As a civilian, you have that option. However, outside of SOF operators, very few soldiers are armed with both a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

Actually, we commonly requested dual carry with M4s and M9s for deploying units - these were ARNG units such as Combat Engineers.

[stanc]

An improved 7.62x25 Tokarev, 9x25 Dillon, or 6.5 CBJ would fit the bill in that Magpul Folding Gun.

Much more projectile mass than 5.7x28, higher velocity, low recoil, effective range from 200-300m.

7.62x25 Tokarev, loaded with a spitzer bullet, yes. (Assuming that the COAL allows grip dimensions viable for use by soldiers with smaller hands.)

6.5x25 CBJ (below) and 9x25 Dillon are incompatible with streamlined, spitzer bullets, so I question if effective range would be even 200 meters.

[stanc]

Actually, we commonly requested dual carry with M4s and M9s for deploying units - these were ARNG units such as Combat Engineers.

Interesting. Photos of US infantry soldiers carrying both are the exception, rather than the rule ( https://www.google.com/search?q=9x25+dil...M:&imgrc=_ ), and I don't recall ever seeing any combat videos showing that.

[LRRPF52]

If you ever get to hold a Glock 20SF or Glock 40, you will see that they reduced the frame size to accommodate smaller hands, unlike the original Glock 20 and Glock 21 (.45 ACP).

Drop in a barrel and you're in business with the 9x25 Dillion, although I would like to see a 6.5mm version of this.

Take that combo and put it in the Magul FGP, and you have an ideal PDW with a long, high capacity mag.

Do it in a modernized 7.62x25 or 6.5 CBJ, and you're done as far as the cartridge/weapon is concerned.

6.5x25 CBJ is effective out to anywhere from 200-400m, both of which exceed the capabilities of 5.7x28 and 4.6x30.

All these cartridges fit in small frame pistols. 6.5x25 CBJ is the only one that is addressing future armor defeat in excess of NATO CRISAT.

The others have the potential to do so with the same AP projectile approaches.

[cory]

An improved 7.62x25 Tokarev, 9x25 Dillon, or 6.5 CBJ would fit the bill in that Magpul Folding Gun.

Much more projectile mass than 5.7x28, higher velocity, low recoil, effective range from 200-300m.

The MFG isn't a PDW, it's a pistol with a buttstock in a covert case. I could do the same thing in a simpler design that would still ride in the drop holsters the military is accustomed to, you'd lose the cool covert aspect of it. Simply change the lower receiver of an existing pistol for one with a foldable buttstock built in.

As a civilian, you have that option. However, outside of SOF operators, very few soldiers are armed with both a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in china. No troops are issued PDWs, but we're still here discussing it. We're talking about what should be, not what is.