.224 Valkyrie? Future competitor to the 6.5 Grendel?

[ahillock]

Was unveiled at Big 3 East conference last week. Based off the .30 Remington/6.8 SPC case and is necked down to .22 caliber. As a result, it has similar internal and external geometry to the .22 Nosler.

Although Federal has not released its spec sheet yet, the .224 Valkyrie appears to have a case that is about 1.62″ long, with an 0.240″ long neck. The shoulder is almost certainly 30 degrees (as is popular at the moment), and the case taper is probably similar to .308 at about 0.35 degrees per side. Since I already had a 6.8 SPC case model laying around, this made modeling the .224 Valkyrie in SolidWorks pretty straightforward:

This case model has a capacity of 34.5 grs H2O (2.23 ccs), which is just a bit short of the .22 Nosler’s 35.8 grains (2.32 ccs) or so. The case model’s weight is 6.92 grams. This means, with a 90gr bullet and a 29.6 gr powder charge, the .224 Valkyrie is clocking in at right about 14.9 grams in weight. This is definitely on the lighter end of the scale for AR rounds, though it is still 24% heavier than 5.56mm, thanks mostly to the heavier projectile.

Obviously, the Valkyrie competes directly with the 5.56mm/.223 Remington and .22 Nosler in the .22 cal AR-15 rifle cartridge bracket, but, well, the ballistics really tell the whole story here:

[ahillock]

Well then, that sure seems definitive, doesn’t it? The .224 Valkyrie has 5.56mm Mk. 262 beat for velocity by 200 meters; the .22 Nosler it has whupped by 250 meters, and all with a bullet that’s 17% heavier. In terms of muzzle energy, it leads the pack of .22s to start, but clings bitterly to every Joule to such a degree that by a kilometer it’s even nipping at the heels of the much-touted 6.5 Grendel. Yet, where the Grendel disappoints in drop and drift, the Valkyrie pulls ahead, earning a massive lead in drop and drift over everything on the chart by the time kilobuck range rolls around. (In fact, although not included on the chart, the .224 Valkyrie approaches the 6.5 Creemoor in both respects at this range).

So, wait, the .224 Valkyrie is an AR-15 compatible round that gives you .22 Nosler performance up close, 6.5 Grendel energy retention, and 6.5 Creedmoor drop and drift at 1,000m? Well, these are just estimates, but… Yeah, looks that way.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/...ibers-025/

[ahillock]

[video=youtube_share;9UQ7Dk2_ywg]https://youtu.be/9UQ7Dk2_ywg[/video]

[bj139]

Why not compare the 90 gr bullet in 6.5 Grendel and 224 Valkyrie?

Is there any downside to making the bullets longer in order to increase weight?

The 6.5mm diameter has that sweet spot of weight vs. diameter, at least for medium game. For heavier animals like moose and above, 30 cal or above is much sweeter.

[StoneHendge]

An apples to apples comparison would be nice. I push a 75 gr VLD with a 0.217 G7 out an 18" 22 Nosler at 2900.

3000+ is also attainable with 70 gr RDFs with a .211 G7 out of an 18" 22 Nosler. I just haven't found the powder load that works yet with them since I've been too busy working with me S'more.

[Smokehouse_83]

How much is this stuff gonna be per round though? I think once Hornady starts loading their bullets in Wolf cases and sells them for 50 cents or cheaper a round the Grendel will take off like wildfire.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Cool name and correct concept. 224 Valkyrie. Fat case. Sleek bullet. I like it.

But what's old is new again. Robert Whitley has a Grendel-based 224 AR, which he wildcatted way back in 2009. It might have even more case capacity than this new 224 Valkyrie.

This could be a good twin for the 6.5 Grendel. Nathaniel F's charts are still somewhat hypothetical; I think real-world results might tame his enthusiasm a bit.

Could be a 6.8 killer. With the 65G on the one side and the 224V on the other, tell me again what 6.8 does? Can't compete with 65G in heavier bullets. 6.8 camp loves the 90gr Gold Dot/Fusion, but they can't compete with 224V in 90-grainers.

We have hardly begun to explore lighter bullets in 6.5mm that truly take advantage of the 0.740" that the Grendel case allows our bullet noses at 2.260 mag length. That nose length is about the same as Berger's 130 VLD or 140 Elite Hunter, so we can be pretty damn sleek, as well. Put that nose on a 90-100gr 6.5mm and make your comparison again. You'll still be glad you own a Grendel. And we'll still have cheap Wolf steel-case.

[Kilco]

Boring!! Just like the 22 Nosler, the 30 rem/6.8 case is too long and restricts the use of the really juicy 22 cal bullets like the 75gr AMAX/eld, 80gr SMK and all the others like that.

What I've been OBSESSED with lately is how perfect the Grendel case works with a 6mm bullet... give that sucker a 1:8 twist and a 20" barrel.... Very sexy possibilities.

The 7mm valkyrie however was based on 6.5x47 Lapua brass.. whole different ball game.. single stack big boy performance.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Kilco, I'm guessing that Federal shaved a bit off the 6.8 case for the 224V. Instead of the original 43mm long, I think they might have gone 41mm or so. If they can load high BC 90-grainers at mag length, could be cool.

I think Federal will officially announce in about two weeks.

[Arkhangel5]

I am trying to see the upside to this particular combo.

Outside of competition and varmint shooting, what is the purpose of it?

I know the benefits of shooting the 90's in a 223 platform for competition, seen it done and done well, but as a very niche combo.

Why a fast heavy .22 caliber for hunting? Some states not allowed, so who exactly is this being catered to?

I dont see the appeal.

SY

[BluntForceTrauma]

Why a fast heavy .22 caliber for hunting? Some states not allowed, so who exactly is this being catered to?

Excellent point about hunting. Could be why the same concept based on necked down 65G brass didn't really take off. But, then again, maybe it needed backing by major ammo player?

I'm completely content with 65G, but we'll see how market reacts. Heck, I'm still shocked .300 Blackout took off like it did!

[Kilco]

Oh so this thing is going to be a SAAMI approved cartridge backed my federal?! If it is, and it's shortened enough to run the high the high b.c bullets, it will be a fun target puncher to be sure... and the total demise of the Ill though out 22 Nosler.

[NugginFutz]

I couldn't help but notice that the source (Nathaniel F at TFB) chose a slick bullet for the Valkyrie, and all SMK's for the rest, so I decided I would try to re-run the numbers with an evened playing field.

I also noticed his BC for the 90 gr VLD was significantly higher than Berger's own posted G7 of 0.274, so I ran with the corrected BC.

Next, I chose a tried and true 123 Scenar for the Grendel. It is a solid choice for VLD comparisons.

Lastly, I updated the 77 grain from the SMK to Berger's Tactical/OTM, with an improved .192 G7 BC. Because the Wylde was simply the same projectile running 50 fps slower than the 22 Nosler, I omitted it entirely as being redundant.

I kept all the velocities as previously posted, and ran the numbers using the Applied Ballistics engine with standard atmospheric and temperature values. With the playing field now evened, the results are somewhat different.



[ATTACH=CONFIG]9925[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9924[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9923[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9922[/ATTACH]

Even still, the Valkyrie does maintain a slight edge on drop and windage, but never gets close for retained energy at any distance.

[Kilco]

Thanks Nuggin!! I was thinking the same thing when I looked at bullet selection.

[sneaky one]

Yes, thanks Nug., the Grr is the Best choice- overall, yet for a .224- WoW. Valkrie-It is a hot rod against to the Nosler. They both will work fine.

Check on what you can get as components firstly. Brass....

Where have I heard the Valkrie put out there as an ammo name before, hmmmm

A hill, look at all the differences from frontal diameters, SD's etc. The Grr is the clear winner in the end here..


If you separate the calibers, and run numbers - yes the Val could be king of the .224 class. This is the 6.5 G forum.

[StoneHendge]

What sneaky one said. I've pretty much given up on 22 Nosler due to the stupid rebated case head and super craptastic brass (I culled about 20% out of a lot of 250'that literally had bent rims from excess dwell time and bolt thrust after the first firing). The remaining 200 went through a second loading and about a third of them have primer pockets that are so loose that even Harvey Weinstein would think twice about them.

But regardless, spotting any 22 cal hits out past 600 yards becomes a difficult task. Not a lot of lead to splash and we all know "energy" is bs when it comes to smacking steel. Given a choice between a 240 gr 44 special plodding along at 750 fps with 300 ft lbs of energy or a 115 gr 9mm at 1180 and 355 ft lbs of energy and one shot to knock down a self resetting target, we all know what we're going to grab.

My 22 Nosler has worked its way to the back corner of my safe. If I didn't have such a absurdly accurate barrel, I'd probably give up on it. But I still have some brass and a stash of 1500 55 gr NBT Varmints that I picked up from Wideners last winter when they were litterly blowing them out the door (I think they were 14 cents a piece), so I'll load them up warm and shoot out my barrel doing what it was designed for - pushing lighter bullets fast.

And that will be the end of my foray with anything other than 223/556 in the caliber. I went 7 for 10 on 1k with 223 during a very calm period today (blemished (!!) 77 gr NCC at 2835 out of my 24" that cost about a quarter to make). What I do with the rest of that build remains to be seen, but if it's 224 caliber, I doubt it will be anything other than 223.

[ahillock]

I am trying to see the upside to this particular combo.

Outside of competition and varmint shooting, what is the purpose of it?

I know the benefits of shooting the 90's in a 223 platform for competition, seen it done and done well, but as a very niche combo.

Why a fast heavy .22 caliber for hunting? Some states not allowed, so who exactly is this being catered to?

I dont see the appeal.

SY

I did a search before and there are some states that allow .22 for hunting. Off the top of my head AR/GA/HI/LA/MD/NV/NC/MT/OR/VT/WI and a few others allow it from the list I saw. Maybe things have changed since I saw that list. Not saying I would ever use a .22 caliber for hunting, but there are states that allow it.

I agree that this .224 Valkyrie seems to have a limited use.

I couldn't help but notice that the source (Nathaniel F at TFB) chose a slick bullet for the Valkyrie, and all SMK's for the rest, so I decided I would try to re-run the numbers with an evened playing field.

Thanks for redoing the data on that.

Yes, thanks Nug., the Grr is the Best choice- overall, yet for a .224- WoW. Valkrie-It is a hot rod against to the Nosler. They both will work fine.

Check on what you can get as components firstly. Brass....

Where have I heard the Valkrie put out there as an ammo name before, hmmmm

A hill, look at all the differences from frontal diameters, SD's etc. The Grr is the clear winner in the end here..


If you separate the calibers, and run numbers - yes the Val could be king of the .224 class. This is the 6.5 G forum.

I agree. I am a 6.5 Grendel guy. Have two setups and probably building another one soon. My favorite round for the AR platform. Still like seeing people come up with new stuff for the AR, and with Federal + LaRue supporting this, it will be interesting to see if it catches on at all.

[NugginFutz]

Thanks Nuggin!! I was thinking the same thing when I looked at bullet selection.

Yes, thanks Nug., the Grr is the Best choice- overall, yet for a .224- WoW. Valkrie-It is a hot rod against to the Nosler. They both will work fine.

...

...
Thanks for redoing the data on that.

No trouble, really. I don't mind new players getting attention and recognition. It's what keeps the game interesting for a lot of us.

I just take exception to posted results which turn out to be derived from spiked data. While I understand the enthusiasm for this (and other wildcats), it casts doubt on that round if you handicap the other cartridges you compare it against. I'm a bit surprised that Nate over at TFB made such an obvious error, and then went on to further stack the deck in favor of the new kid on the block (which clearly doesn't seem to need the help) by selecting non-VLD projectiles to compare against. He's generally better than this.

Moments like this always remind me of a quote by Ronald H. Coase: "If you torture the data long enough, it will confess anything".

[JASmith]

Thanks for catching the uneven playing field.

This is not the first time that unneeded debate and rancor was caused by someone who biased an assessment for a new cartridge.

It happens often enough that one coukd wonder ifnthe ruckus was the actual objective. As we have seen before, notoriety gets name recognition and just recogning the name can sell things.

[StoneHendge]

Thanks for catching the uneven playing field.

This is not the first time that unneeded debate and rancor was caused by someone who biased an assessment for a new cartridge.

It happens often enough that one coukd wonder ifnthe ruckus was the actual objective. As we have seen before, notoriety gets name recognition and just recogning the name can sell things.

Just read the review again and it seems that the 90 gr VLD going 2700 was pulled out of thin air. No comment whatsoever in the article as to where that number came from. Just a number in a chart. Not saying it's not possible, but debate is pointless until there's actual real world data.

But Federal must smell blood in the water with Nosler's stupid design. There's obviously a market (and a high end one at that) as I keep seeing more barrel makers get into 22 Nosler. Looks like Rainier will now sell you several different configurations in their ultra match line for 500 clams.

I think the most telling sign of the problems with 22 Nosler is that 9 months after introduction, not a single powder manufacturer has put out any load data. Nor has anyone else put their name on the stupid rebated rimmed brass.