In California, gun control fails once again

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

In California, gun control fails once again


<https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2...932461002/>

[stanc]

[video=youtube;f8Jt7E8XmRQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Jt7E8XmRQ[/video]

[montana]

[video=youtube;f8Jt7E8XmRQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Jt7E8XmRQ[/video]

Was there a point you were trying to make with this video Stan other than California's gun control has failed once again.

[stanc]

Was there a point you were trying to make with this video Stan other than California's gun control has failed once again.

The point is that some folks think the failure is a result of inadequate gun control. Mass shootings seem to be occurring with disturbingly greater frequency.

If an effective counter to such shootings is not soon implemented, I think the emotional reaction seen in the video will lead inexorably to more restrictive laws.

[montana]

The point is that some folks think the failure is a result of inadequate gun control. Mass shootings seem to be occurring with disturbingly greater frequency.

If an effective counter to such shootings is not soon implemented, I think the emotional reaction seen in the video will lead inexorably to more restrictive laws.

Uninformed people will react emotionally, will tend to look for an easy answer and blame the things they don't understand. The fact that California has some of the strongest gun control laws in the nation, "which has failed to prevent such crimes" has some how escaped their attention. The fact these crimes always occur in gun free zones has also escaped their attention. The real question is, do we as a society give all power and authority to the state for our protection or do we allow ourselves the right and ability to protect ourselves? I would argue the University of Hawaii's study on democide answers the first question. There is an effective counter to such shootings, "but for ignorance and political reasons" they are not wide spread or allowed. It is called the right to concealed carry.https://www.nationalreview.com/news/arme...mcdonalds/

[bj139]

[video=youtube;f8Jt7E8XmRQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Jt7E8XmRQ[/video]

What are the odds that her son would be at two major shootings in a year 300 miles away from each other?
I guess it could happen. It just seems strange.

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

[Double Naught Spy]

Wow, that is a bunch of hot links that don't work.

In regard to the OP, pretty much all laws fail. What we don't know is how often they do work. We only know when they fail. There could have been 50 other shootings that never happened because of the law, but we would never know it because they didn't happen.

Here I am NOT advocating that gun control works. I am just pointing out that what we see relevant to the law, any law, is when it does not stop somebody from infracting it. If a law is bad because it has failed, then virtually all laws apparently will be found to be bad because virtually all laws have failed.

I find it equally stupid that we create new laws to cover crimes already covered by laws. Murder is already illegal, but if you murder somebody because they are different from you, it becomes a "hate crime." Back in the 90s, {mostly} white people were torching black churches. That was already a crime of arson in every state where it occurred, such acts were made to be a federal crime (Church Arson Prevention Act of 1996). No doubt now those acts would also be considered hate crimes.

Similarly, there are instances where there have been mass shootings in pro gun states in non GFZs that were not stopped by armed citizenry. Does that mean concealed carry has failed as well? I know Texas has had our share, but we aren't the only ones.

[montana]

Wow, that is a bunch of hot links that don't work.



Similarly, there are instances where there have been mass shootings in pro gun states in non GFZs that were not stopped by armed citizenry.

Examples??? I think you need to do a little more research when comparing mass shootings in gun free zones and non gun free zones. https://crimeresearch.org/2018/06/more-m...shootings/

Citizens abdicating their right to own firearms, "whether willingly or by force" has also proven disastrous.https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/...pSmuB1gt2Q

[stanc]

Wow, that is a bunch of hot links that don't work.

That's because they are not hot links. It's a screenshot. Sassy likes to use 'em in his posts.

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

<https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/f...-citizens/>

[Double Naught Spy]

That's because they are not hot links. It's a screenshot. Sassy likes to use 'em in his posts.

Yep, but they were hot links as shown. Sort of the lazy and incomplete way to do things given that the screen shot doesn't even include the entire link on some of the links.

[stanc]

Uninformed people will react emotionally...

It ain't just the uninformed. Most humans react emotionally.

The fact that California has some of the strongest gun control laws in the nation, "which has failed to prevent such crimes" has some how escaped their attention.

No, it hasn't. They just view it from the other direction -- as proof that CA gun laws are not strong enough.

What are the odds that her son would be at two major shootings in a year 300 miles away from each other?
I guess it could happen. It just seems strange.

I don't know why you think it's strange. SoCal residents go to Las Vegas every day. There were reportedly over 22,000 country music fans at the concert in Vegas. Most likely a large percentage of them were from SoCal. It does not seem particularly strange to me that a few of them would also go to a popular country music bar where they live.

FYI, here's another one: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/09/us/thousa...index.html

[montana]

It ain't just the uninformed. Most humans react emotionally.

Yup, and it is the reason the reaction is emotional, not logical.At the point of reaction, emotions are very important for choosing the reaction. In fact even with what we believe are logical decisions, the very point of choice is arguably always based on emotion.

No, it hasn't. They just view it from the other direction -- as proof that CA gun laws are not strong enough.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

"Albert Einstein"

[Double Naught Spy]

Examples??? I think you need to do a little more research when comparing mass shootings in gun free zones and non gun free zones. https://crimeresearch.org/2018/06/more-m...shootings/

Citizens abdicating their right to own firearms, "whether willingly or by force" has also proven disastrous.https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/...pSmuB1gt2Q

I have done plenty of research. That is the ironic thing. I will try to limit my sample of examples to public mass shootings and not overload the board with all of the mass shootings that are not in public places. I will leave out the countless mass shootings that occur in private homes and such. I am not going to include public drive-by shootings, either.

However, I wasn't doing a "comparison" of shootings between GFZs and non-GFZs which would have been obvious if you read more closely. I simply stated that there were plenty of mass shootings in non-GFZs not actually stopped by armed citizenry.

2004 Chai Soua Vang, a 35-year-old Hmong immigrant and naturalized U.S. citizen, shot eight people while deer hunting east of Birchwood in northern Wisconsin. The irony here is that he shot other hunters who confronted him about using a stand that was not his...and they apparently were unarmed.

2005 - Seven people were killed and four wounded when Terry Michael Ratzmann opened fire at a Living Church of God service at the Sheraton Hotel in Brookfield. Ratzmann, a 44-year-old computer technician, then committed suicide (Wisconsin) (hotel not posted).

2005 - Tacoma Mall, Dominick Maldonado injured 6, then kidnapped 4. CCW responded by yelling at Maldonado, but with no gun deployed. The CCW was subsequently shot multiple times.

2005 - Courthouse Square, Tyler, Texas, David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. killing 2 and wounding 4. Mark Wilson responded from his residence above the square and was killed after wounding Arroyo and being credited with saving lives. As this happened outside of the courthouse, Arroyo expected law enforcement and wore a fragmentation vest and ballistic vest. Here the CCW was instrumental in the fight, but was killed in the process, but it very much happened in a public NON GFZ.

2007 - Youth with a Mission Center and New Life Church shootings by Matthew J. Murray (Colorado), killing 2 and injuring 2 at YWAM and later that day killing 3 (including self) and injuring 3 at New Life. Before the suicide, was shot by former police officer and part of the church's volunteer armed security).

2007 - Trolley Square shooting, stopped by an off duty police officer and on duty officer.

2008 - Skagit County Shooting Spree, Isaac Zamora killed 6 including a deputy and injured two more during a shooting spree near his home and during a high speed chase on I-5.

2009 - Lakewood, WA, four cops killed in coffee shop by Maurice Clemmons.

2009 - Michael Kenneth McLendon went on a shooting spree spanning 2 counties in southern Alabama, killing 10 other than himself. Along the way, he shot at various people and vehicles and even stories such as Wal-mart and Piggly Wiggly.

2011 - Giffords shooting, Tucson, AZ. Jared Loughner opened fire, killing 6, wounding 13, plus there was 1 additional non-gunfire injury that resulted. This happened in a public parking lot where open carry is legal as is CCW. A CCW person responded to late to be of any use with a gun as the shooter had already been subdued by unarmed people present, one of which hit Loughner over the head with a chair. The CCW, Zamudo, admitted to almost shooting one of the good guys who had disarmed the shooter.

2011 - Eduardo Sencion killed 5 (including self), wounded 7 at a Carson City, NV IHOP.

2011 - Grand Prairie, Texas roller rink mass shooting with 6 dead (including shooter, self inflicted) and 4 wounded at a birthday party at the rink.

2011 - Detroit Police Station, Lamar Moore opened fire from in front of the counter, then hopped the counter, shooting 4 officers (none died). You can argue this was a GFZ, but all the people in the GFZ were armed officers.

2012 - Café Racer, Ian Stawicki killed 4 and wounded the chef before leaving and later attempting to carjack a woman, killing her.

2015 - Dallas protest march shooting of 5 Dallas Police officers and one other non-officer. Downtown Dallas and not one CCW is known to have responded. There were a lot of LEOs present for the event. Many responded valiantly and attempted to engage the shooter. Sadly, many did not.

2016 - Houston, Dionisio Garza III, Army veteran, fired 212 rounds during the shooting rampage in a neighborhood off of Memorial Drive. A CCW attempted to engage Garza, drawing his gun and apparently pointing it at Garza who shot him through both legs, leaving the CCW as a cripple (as of last update). Cops put down Garza and initially thought the CCW was also a bad guy.

2016 - Houston, later the same year, a lawyer set up on a public street corner and managed to shoot 9 people over a period of 20 minutes or so before the arrival of the police who put him down. None of the people driving by being shot at attempted to stop the shooter. Nobody came out of their homes with weapons and attempted to stop the shooter.

2017 - Sutherland Springs, Texas mass shooting at a church that was not posted. The shooter had completed his shooting inside the church and had exited and was headed to his car when he was engaged by a guy who came out of his house, loading a magazine along the way. Unfortunately, the damage was done. A church full of people and none engaged the shooter with a gun as apparently all were unarmed.

2018 - PA Synagogue shooting

New Orleans has had several mass shootings on the streets in recent years such as the Clairborne Avenue shooting this year where 10 people were shot 3 killed, on a public street as the shooters attempted to chased down and kill a single person.

I really stopped keeping track of mass shootings long about 2015 after I got tired of pro gun folks who kept wanting to redefine mass shootings in manners that resulted in smaller and smaller sample sizes, some going as far as to not wanting to classify a mass shooting as a mass shooting if it did not first have the component of being a mass murder (originally defined by the FBI as 4 or more killed, not including the shooter, in a single event/location...versus spree or serial killings). That would mean a shooter could shoot 25 people and if less than 4 died, it would not be a mass shooting. That's some crazy logic.

Often left out of mass shooting stats are the private mass shootings. Nobody seems really fearful of private mass shootings, although they are very common. We have the mindset of stranger danger and that if something bad is going to happen, it will likely be out in public by somebody we don't know. In reality, if you are going to be shot, it is more common that you are going to be shot by an acquaintance, friend, or loved one. Of the 15 or 20 self defense classes I have had over the years, never have I had one using scenarios such as your "wife, husband, father, daughter, mother or brother enters your home and starts murdering your family" and how you will deal with it. When my daughters went through their school shooting drills, the shooter was always a stranger.

I was also bothered by folks in the Obama administration reclassifying mass shootings down from 4 people to 3 people. Too many people keep wanting to redraw the battle lines to make their arguments look better.

At one point, I even went down to Tyler, Texas to look at the square and the distances of the shots being fired, by those of the deputies, Mark Wilson, and by the gunman. I even spoke with one of the deputies who was there at the courthouse that day.

So when you suggest I should research it a little more, I had to laugh. There are hundreds of mass shootings every year that don't fall into the Pulse Night Club limelight and make the news. A lot of the public place mass shootings, workplace shootings, school shootings, etc. are in gun free zones. A bunch are not, but the majority of mass shootings don't fall into the headline newsworthy, attention-getting categories on which people like to focus.

In the grand scheme, you and I are not likely to be in a public mass shooting. We aren't likely to be in a drive-by or private mass shooting either, not when compared to being in just a plain old regular shooting and that isn't very likely either. However, I remained armed at home as I am when I am out in public.

[stanc]

...even with what we believe are logical decisions, the very point of choice is arguably always based on emotion.

Heh, heh. That is a notion I would argue with.

[montana]

I have done plenty of research. That is the ironic thing. I will try to limit my sample of examples to public mass shootings and not overload the board with all of the mass shootings that are not in public places. I will leave out the countless mass shootings that occur in private homes and such. I am not going to include public drive-by shootings, either.

However, I wasn't doing a "comparison" of shootings between GFZs and non-GFZs which would have been obvious if you read more closely. I simply stated that there were plenty of mass shootings in non-GFZs not actually stopped by armed citizenry.



I really stopped keeping track of mass shootings long about 2015 after I got tired of pro gun folks who kept wanting to redefine mass shootings in manners that resulted in smaller and smaller sample sizes, some going as far as to not wanting to classify a mass shooting as a mass shooting if it did not first have the component of being a mass murder (originally defined by the FBI as 4 or more killed, not including the shooter, in a single event/location...versus spree or serial killings). That would mean a shooter could shoot 25 people and if less than 4 died, it would not be a mass shooting. That's some crazy logic.

Often left out of mass shooting stats are the private mass shootings. Nobody seems really fearful of private mass shootings, although they are very common. We have the mindset of stranger danger and that if something bad is going to happen, it will likely be out in public by somebody we don't know. In reality, if you are going to be shot, it is more common that you are going to be shot by an acquaintance, friend, or loved one. Of the 15 or 20 self defense classes I have had over the years, never have I had one using scenarios such as your "wife, husband, father, daughter, mother or brother enters your home and starts murdering your family" and how you will deal with it. When my daughters went through their school shooting drills, the shooter was always a stranger.

I was also bothered by folks in the Obama administration reclassifying mass shootings down from 4 people to 3 people. Too many people keep wanting to redraw the battle lines to make their arguments look better.

At one point, I even went down to Tyler, Texas to look at the square and the distances of the shots being fired, by those of the deputies, Mark Wilson, and by the gunman. I even spoke with one of the deputies who was there at the courthouse that day.

So when you suggest I should research it a little more, I had to laugh. There are hundreds of mass shootings every year that don't fall into the Pulse Night Club limelight and make the news. A lot of the public place mass shootings, workplace shootings, school shootings, etc. are in gun free zones. A bunch are not, but the majority of mass shootings don't fall into the headline newsworthy, attention-getting categories on which people like to focus.

In the grand scheme, you and I are not likely to be in a public mass shooting. We aren't likely to be in a drive-by or private mass shooting either, not when compared to being in just a plain old regular shooting and that isn't very likely either. However, I remained armed at home as I am when I am out in public.

So what was your point?? California should pass more firearm restrictions?? Ban firearms all together?? Gun owners should not point out the obvious flaws with the lefts logic on gun ownership?? Here is a statistic that will not be mentioned by the anti AR-15 crowed: more people die from falling out of bed every year than die from all rifle fire including the evil assault weapons.https://www.brainjet.com/random/2352990/...t-believe/ Should we pass a law requiring everyone to sleep on the floor?? I grew up with the worst serial killer in Montana's history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Nance He was stopped by a good guy with a gun. I worked as a bouncer with a guy who was married to a wonderful woman. I had even eaten dinner at their house. One day he kidnapped a teenage girl and brutally raped her. This scum bag was finally murdered in Deer Lodge prison. I had another friend that I met in our martial arts school who was a great guy. He lived in a remote house by Ovando where a drifter murdered him and his wife. http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/deat...ord441.htm I new another guy who murdered his wife and then himself after she divorced him.One of my best friends,"who was in the Mt highway patrol and finaly became head of the MTHP" was in a shootout and killed a bank robber who shot at him with an AK-47. I have known numerous people who have committed suicide with firearms too. I have been very fortunate that all my confrontations ended with a fist instead of a bullet. Maybe for most in the grand scheme of things they aren't likely to be in a drive-by or private mass shooting, "but in my life experience" the world can be a dangerous place and being disarmed is not an option.Remeber, the off duty police officers in the 1000 Oak bar were not allowed to be armed.

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

Man Violates Gun Free Zone Sign - Then Saves Lives


<https://www.full30.com/video/cadddf2c5fa...e9f87d8496>

[stanc]

I grew up with the worst serial killer in Montana's history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Nance He was stopped by a good guy with a gun. I worked as a bouncer with a guy who was married to a wonderful woman. I had even eaten dinner at their house. One day he kidnapped a teenage girl and brutally raped her. This scum bag was finally murdered in Deer Lodge prison. I had another friend that I met in our martial arts school who was a great guy. He lived in a remote house by Ovando where a drifter murdered him and his wife. http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/deat...ord441.htm I new another guy who murdered his wife and then himself after she divorced him.One of my best friends,"who was in the Mt highway patrol and finaly became head of the MTHP" was in a shootout and killed a bank robber who shot at him with an AK-47. I have known numerous people who have committed suicide with firearms too. I have been very fortunate that all my confrontations ended with a fist instead of a bullet. Maybe for most in the grand scheme of things they aren't likely to be in a drive-by or private mass shooting, "but in my life experience" the world can be a dangerous place and being disarmed is not an option.

Jeez. Clearly, the State of Montana can be a dangerous place. :eek:

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

<https://www.statista.com/statistics/8115...-by-state/>