Accuracy: Finding the bar?

[Lemonaid]

I checked nearly all of the posts in the Target & Competition thread looking for the very best accuracy a Grendel can do.
If this question is handled in another place, please direct me to it.
I'm looking for an elite group who have set the bar, the top of the heap, the leaders of the pack etc.. to compare how I am doing and see how close I can get to their lofty accomplishments.

From what I have read here on the forum a rough rule of thumb for the AR platform was:

1 moa average
3/4 moa good
1/2 moa very good
1/3 moa excellent and hard to get
1/4 moa Mythical

If this is wrong, please correct with the right classification.

I think I'm not alone in wanting to see the very best Grendel accuracy, and the gear and loads that produced them in a single place of honor.

One other thing that kind of goes with this is the Long range shooters of Utah milk jug challenge, shooting at various ranges that is a kind of fun way to compete / a test of skill and equipment.
Any suggestion on a Grendel shooters accuracy challenge?
Thanks again all who make this forum a information and fun packed place (love the joke of the day!)

[LR1955]

I checked nearly all of the posts in the Target & Competition thread looking for the very best accuracy a Grendel can do.
If this question is handled in another place, please direct me to it.
I'm looking for an elite group who have set the bar, the top of the heap, the leaders of the pack etc.. to compare how I am doing and see how close I can get to their lofty accomplishments.

From what I have read here on the forum a rough rule of thumb for the AR platform was:

1 moa average
3/4 moa good
1/2 moa very good
1/3 moa excellent and hard to get
1/4 moa Mythical

If this is wrong, please correct with the right classification.

I think I'm not alone in wanting to see the very best Grendel accuracy, and the gear and loads that produced them in a single place of honor.

One other thing that kind of goes with this is the Long range shooters of Utah milk jug challenge, shooting at various ranges that is a kind of fun way to compete / a test of skill and equipment.
Any suggestion on a Grendel shooters accuracy challenge?
Thanks again all who make this forum a information and fun packed place (love the joke of the day!)

LA:

The only way you will know the absolute mechanical potential of the ammo and rifle is to use a machine rest to hold it in place and shoot it mechanically without any human interference.

What you have written is pretty much correct. However it needs to be put in terms of a mean and standard deviation.

Accuracy challenges are bench rest competitions. Performance challenges are something akin to Precision Rifle Series or High Power where the shooter is more involved with the rifle.

Which one are you going for?

LR55

[Klem]

I
1 moa average
3/4 moa good
1/2 moa very good
1/3 moa excellent and hard to get
1/4 moa Mythical

!)

Lemonaid,

I think you've might have been swept up with other members exaggerations.

With a top-dollar stainless match barrel with mechanical rest on a calm day.Multiple 4-rd gp averages. Counting every shot, including fliers.
1 moa very good
3/4 moa Excellent
1/2 moa Extraordinary and suspicious.
1/3 moa Damn lies
1/4 moa Dreaming

[Lemonaid]

I lean toward the bench rest competition to see what the rifle can do. Then the Performance challenge to see what I can do after I've wrung out as much accuracy can get at the bench.
My post was to try to get a realistic idea as to what a AR Grendel shooters have done with the best barrel, accessories and loads as a benchmark to strive for.
The Grendel challenge would just be a fun way to measure progress at shooting longer and longer distances. Something like a 2" orange target sticker with a smiley face, 3 out 5 rounds (5 rounds total, no spotters) in the orange at 100, 200, 300, 500, 600 Yards. Could have separate bench vs. prone achievements?
I'm hoping someone will have a great fun idea that will catch on as a sort of standard accuracy test.
LR55 what is your best accuracy results so far? Thanks in advance!
The thing about the Milk Judge challenge I'm not satisfied with is it doesn't let you measure/record group size or how close your misses were. Hard to determine if you were just lucky.

[Lemonaid]

Klem, That is exactly the kind of info that will help me and I would think others new to the Grendel. Thanks!
Care to post you best accuracy so far?

[lazyengineer]

Lemonaid,

I think you've might have been swept up with other members exaggerations.

With a top-dollar stainless match barrel with mechanical rest on a calm day.Multiple 4-rd gp averages. Counting every shot, including fliers.
1 moa very good
3/4 moa Excellent
1/2 moa Extraordinary and suspicious.
1/3 moa Damn lies
1/4 moa Dreaming

I would say this is much more accurate. For what it's worth, if you can consistently hold and shoot 2 MOA all day, you will never lose a High Power Service Rifle Match; and will beat the best riflemen in the world on a regular basis. First, there's the mechanical accuracy inherent to the gun held in a very steady vice with no wind, to which Klem's posting is correct. And then there's the real world, which is wider then that even.

Also, there's actual accuracy, and there's 3-shot cherry picking.

Finally, while it's insufferable when people talk about precision vs accuracy, there's some reality there. Most people who post amazing photos of their 1 hole group that they cherry-picked for the internet, show that amazing group about 1.5" away from their point of impact. Don't get me wrong, they're right to be proud - i'll do it! And posting that data is useful as an indicator. But also kind of keep in mind, that a a tight group that misses, doesn't help! I'll take a centered 1.5 MOA gun any day, over a 0.25 MOA gun (if that even exists), that can't seem to actually find the bullseye. But that said, sure, it IS a great indicator, and I encourage people to keep posting such.

The short answer, if you can get 1 MOA reliably out of your gun and ammo - pragmatically, that's Very Good, and you're done! Improvements beyond that get a lot harder to do, but more importantly, have rapidly diminishing pragmatic value.

Lazy's criteria:

--4 MOA = no good
--3 MOA = disappointing, but can work. This is M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, AK country, which a lot of people use to good effect.
--2.5 MOA = serviceable. Not ideal, but large number of real-world practical shots are within this. This is Wolf Steel country, and fine for gong-banging out a few hundred yards. I've got an AUG that's opened up to this, and I still score in top rankings with it in open-field shooting at gongs in competition with it - as the gongs are typically 4 MOA territory.
--2 MOA = serviceable. Decent enough for the vast majority of real-world shots, and even some competition usage. If I'm doing this with off-the shelf brass ammo, I'm satisfied.
--1.5 MOA = Good. If I have an M4 that I can do this with some minor tuned handloads. I'm good. This is the outer level of accuracy for competition usage.
--1.0 MOA = Very good. This takes tuned or premium quality ammo to actually achieve, in my experience. Don't just expect to regularly do this with Wal-Mart ammo and a basic rifle; this is Very Damned GOOD. In my opinion, 1 MOA is also the pragmatic limit of actual real-world accuracy. To monolog a bit: This is to say, if you take a gun capable of this or greater, and take a shot at a gong that 500 yards away; even with excellent wind-call and excellent distance estimation, you are not going to pragmatically be impacting better than 1 MOA from your desired point of impact on your first shot; no matter what. Aside from how inherently accuracy of the gun is; how one addresses the rifle will affect its POI. Picking up a rifle sighted on one bench using sandbags, and dropping it in a different setting - means the shooter is almost certainly not addressing the rifle quite the same as how it was zero'd. For what it's worth, the USAMU PRS shooter in Semi-auto division, who wins matches, once measured the actually accuracy of his AR10(style) last year, and found it to be about 1.25 MOA. He wins, because he knows how to shoot, and 1.25 MOA is enough to win. For the most part, if your gun can average 1 MOA out of 3 five-shot groups - you're done, that's a great gun and ammo.
--0.75 MOA = Excellent. In my opinion, this is match-grade accuracy. It takes considerable effort and good quality ammo to get this down to multiple 5-shot groups averaging this. This is starting to be a real test of a rifleman's skill as well, for the reasons mentioned just above.
--0.5 MOA = Exceptional. This often takes heavy barrel bench rest shooting with a Master or High Master class level rifleman, to consistently do this (i.e. not just one cherry-picked group)
--<0.5 MOA = Exaggerations of the above. This starts getting really really rare, and when you see it, ask to see the group before or after. I've shot groups down below half-MOA. I've shot 2 groups in a row, with other ammo tested in between, better than half MOA. It can be done. But this is exceptional. And can I really say I'll do it again next time? Donno. Can I REALLY say I'll be hitting 5 shots within 0.25 MOA of my intended point of aim next time I pick up that gun and put it down again? Hell no.

All of this is intended as pragmatism, not to be judgy. If you go shoot a 0.4 MOA 3 shot group, by all means - post that sucker! And say look what I was able to do, that's a 0.4 MOA group. PLEASE! I want to see that data! It's very useful to see that stuff! It's a great indicator that this is a higher-end capable combination, and hey, this is a good rifleman too! Just be aware when interpreting such postings, that doesn't mean you should expect that gun to every time to put 10 shots within 0.2 MOA of the crosshairs, is my point there.

Take care!

[Lemonaid]

Thanks Lazyengineer, great post with great info!
Where do you think most AR Grendels can get to with hand loads in MOA?

[LR1955]

I lean toward the bench rest competition to see what the rifle can do. Then the Performance challenge to see what I can do after I've wrung out as much accuracy can get at the bench.
My post was to try to get a realistic idea as to what a AR Grendel shooters have done with the best barrel, accessories and loads as a benchmark to strive for.
The Grendel challenge would just be a fun way to measure progress at shooting longer and longer distances. Something like a 2" orange target sticker with a smiley face, 3 out 5 rounds (5 rounds total, no spotters) in the orange at 100, 200, 300, 500, 600 Yards. Could have separate bench vs. prone achievements?
I'm hoping someone will have a great fun idea that will catch on as a sort of standard accuracy test.
LR55 what is your best accuracy results so far? Thanks in advance!
The thing about the Milk Judge challenge I'm not satisfied with is it doesn't let you measure/record group size or how close your misses were. Hard to determine if you were just lucky.

Best Accuracy Results with a Grendel gas gun? When I hit what I believe is 3/4 minute mean at 200 yards, that's the load I stay with and my load testing ends. That is with a Grendel gas operated rifle, not something like one of my 6 BR prone rifles.

When I had to plan and conduct training events to evaluate marksmanship and tactical skills, my own standards were that the target must, as a minimum, equal the accuracy performance of the rifle and ammo combination we were using. Given civilians with a mixture of rifles and cartridges, I would not allow a target under two minutes. Your notion of two inches at 600 yards means if someone hit it, it would be random chance and thus not a evaluation of equipment and shooter.

If someone wants to see how well they can deal with the environment and shoot at the same time, they need to do some PRS or High Power competitions. Even Three Gun would be a decent evaluation.

What Klem is writing is the most realistic means of defining standards.

You see, most guys who compete find a load that gives us the competitive performance we think can win in our sport. Once that is found, we shoot it and probably won't do load development again until the performance drops or we get a new barrel.

LR55

[Lemonaid]

LR55 thanks! More things to think about and try. Looks like my expectations were inaccurate

[Drillboss]

I'll admit to the cherry picking crowd. I was doing some testing of temperature variance between Hornady Black and Power Pro Varmint hand loads. I shot three rounds of Black to check velocity and when I pulled the target, there was only one hole in it (first thought was that I missed it twice). Looking at the backer board, there was a slightly triangular hole in it. Bottom line, I've got a barrel capable of a 0.036" group at 100 yards. Never mind that other groups are typically 1" to 1.5".

[Klem]

Lemonaid,

As I understand it you are wanting to know how well an AR can shoot compared to a bolt gun. My answer is when you isolate as many variables as you can you are left with the potential of the gun. So I am assuming best ammo, best wind conditions, best stable platform, careful shooting and best quality parts (especially barrel, scope, trigger).

I was taught there are four factors that influence where the bullets go;

1. Gun
   
2. Shooter
   
3. Environmental conditions (e.g. wind).
   
4. ammunition.
   

I will add to that the interface between the gun and the ground...the 'rest' is also an important factor. The best rest you can get is a quality mechanical rest that absorbs some of the recoil and the gun rides it well, i.e. tracks parallel in the recoil.

Which is why I said earlier that I am assuming results from shooting on a calm day, from the prone or seated on a concrete bench, with a steady rest (not bipod), with the best loads you have worked up, and are feeling good; calm, hydrated, motivated, rested, focussed.

I posted this a while back which is a test of 78 four-rd groups. I was trying to isolate everything except the two types of neck tension. The average for my gun with a Lilja barrel, high-end scope and Geissele trigger is 0.8MOA. I might be able to squeeze 0.75 average if I use 107SMK which shoot fractionally better than the 120NBT's in this barrel. When you eliminate as much as you reasonably can of all other variables you are left with what I think an expensive AR is capable of...0.8MOA on average with four-rd groups, at 100yds, and not discounting any shots. Someone else could probably squeeze a little more out of it as a better shot but that's the ballpark.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]13887[/ATTACH]

Having shot F-Class with 8kg guns for a few years I know that 0.5MOA with 10-shot groups is more their standard. Bench Rest shooters with their $1,000 mechanical rests and multiple wind spinners between shooter and target expect even better.

I think your idea of a standard test is great, but will be polluted by the occasional insecure poster looking for cheap online kudos. To be honest, and it's unfortunate but I don't pay much heed to posters proudly showing off their groups. Good luck to everyone but the temptation is too great to cherry-pick the best groups while implying that is the average, posting on an international medium where you simply cannot verify. Or a barrel manufacturer pretending to be an average shooter, covertly plugging their products. 'Trust but verify', on a medium where it's hard to verify, makes it difficult to trust.

.

[Lemonaid]

Thanks Klem, excellent data. The standard test thing was mostly for the fun of doing it and to see what the shooter can do as a self test. As LR55 posted a 2 inch target at 600 is a bit small. A medium paper plate is 9 inches, would that be too easy, hard or just right for 600 yds?

[lazyengineer]

NRA 600 yard target 10-ring is 12"



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w...2705205277

Master class prone rifleman shoots a 97%.
Which is to say that master rifleman with a match rifle and tuned ammunition that is zero'd with sighter shots, will shoot three 9's out of 10 shots fired into that target.

[Lemonaid]

Good stuff, Lazyengineer. Certainly a standard that has big user base but...
Is it fun to shoot? Easy to see bullet holes at 600 Yards?
For some reason shooting steel is a popular thing and the milk jug challenge is well, blasting a milk jug filled with water! Depending on distance and load they blow up real pretty!

Keep the ideas coming, I'll follow the Herd on a Grendel challenge format if one ever gets born.

[lazyengineer]

Service Rifle is a great sport! You take turns in the pits, and your target is on a moving frame. You hear the shot crack overhead, pull the target down into your safe pit (with 20 manned targets abrest doing the same thing) mark it with a 3" white disc, run it back up. Shooter can see in his scope where his last shot went, adjust, and repeat. Than you swap.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2MTI1E0TcZk

[video=youtube;ve8FqDq7HpA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve8FqDq7HpA[/video]

[LR1955]

Thanks Klem, excellent data. The standard test thing was mostly for the fun of doing it and to see what the shooter can do as a self test. As LR55 posted a 2 inch target at 600 is a bit small. A medium paper plate is 9 inches, would that be too easy, hard or just right for 600 yds?

LA:

That would be 1 1/2 minutes. A NRA High Power target shot prone unsupported with or without an optic at 600 yards has a two minute ten ring and a one minute X ring. I have seen more than one very good prone shooter shoot 595 and above for a sixty shot match on that target with a X count above 30. At our prone matches, the winner normally shoots a 598 of 600. Most with Palma Rifles shooting .308 in fact.

The F Class target uses a one minute 10 ring and a 1/2 minute X Ring. Since I do not shoot F Class, I am not sure what is possible in terms of fired scores. Klem can tell you.

For either target, scores go down if the winds pick up and are variable or if the sun comes and goes from behind clouds. Mirage plays a major role in scores sometimes.

I have never seen a Grendel shoot well at 600 yards in terms of these targets and specific disciplines. Although I am pretty certain the Grendel can hold two minutes at 600, I doubt it will hold one minute. If nothing more, winds and changes in mirage that the shooter can not detect add up to push the slow moving bullet around.

Personally I would stay with a two minute 10 ring and a one minute X ring. I doubt a Grendel gas gun will hold two minutes all the time at 600 but I think a very well made bolt rifle would.

LR55

[snell]

High Master................................................. 98.00 and above
Master............................................................. 96.50 to 97.99
Expert .............................................................94.00 to 96.49
Sharpshooter................................................... 91.50 to 93.99
Marksman.......................................................... Below 91.49

These are the scores required for various classifications on that tiny F class target.

[Lemonaid]

[quote=LR1955]LA:

That would be 1 1/2 minutes. A NRA High Power target shot prone unsupported with or without an optic at 600 yards has a two minute ten ring and a one minute X ring. I have seen more than one very good prone shooter shoot 595 and above for a sixty shot match on that target with a X count above 30. At our prone matches, the winner normally shoots a 598 of 600. Most with Palma Rifles shooting .308 in fact.

The F Class target uses a one minute 10 ring and a 1/2 minute X Ring. Since I do not shoot F Class, I am not sure what is possible in terms of fired scores. Klem can tell you.

For either target, scores go down if the winds pick up and are variable or if the sun comes and goes from behind clouds. Mirage plays a major role in scores sometimes.

I have never seen a Grendel shoot well at 600 yards in terms of these targets and specific disciplines. Although I am pretty certain the Grendel can hold two minutes at 600, I doubt it will hold one minute. If nothing more, winds and changes in mirage that the shooter can not detect add up to push the slow moving bullet around.

Personally I would stay with a two minute 10 ring and a one minute X ring. I doubt a Grendel gas gun will hold two minutes all the time at 600 but I think a very well made bolt rifle would.

LR55[/QU

Holy carp that is some outstanding ability!! A scoped supported rifle is plenty hard enough for me.
It somewhat wiped me out today doing some ladders at 100 yards, my last group suffered from mental and eye fatigue.
I need to up my game!

[SCJim]

Thanks for this thread. This Thursday I plan on breaking in the barrel on my first Grendel and this thread has been informative as to what I can realistically expect from it. I really enjoy shooting at 300, 600 and 800 and want a gas gun that can reach out past 300 so I plan on exploring the limits of the Grendel's accuracy within the limits of my own abilities. The rifle is a Sanders Armory upper on a Rock River match lower.

I started shooting long range causally 7 or 8 years ago and started shooting F class for about a year shooting at the low end of the expert lvl in both mid and long range. I won't be able to stretch it out past 100 for a few months but I am looking forward to posting a lot of range reports and load development on it's progress. The goal is to get 10 shot groups less than 1 MOA out to 300 and less than 1.5 MOA at 600 before the end of summer. Whether that is realistic or not remains to be seen. I am not shy about doing a barrel change out or other mods to the rifle if I think it would be worthwhile but there's not too much I can do about the guy pulling the trigger. I think this is going to be a fun summer project

Oh and on the F class targets the 10 ring on a 300 yard is a bit less than a MOA while the 800 has 1.25 MOA 10 ring. That is because the NRA uses the same target at 1000 with a 10 inch 1 MOA X ring. That makes 300 yard contests as tough as the 800 which would get more environmental effects. Never had a chance to play with 1000 yet but will have soon

[Texas]

I have come to expect 2 MOA from any Grendel barrel. Ihave a test AR that has had a number of different barrels and for some strange reason I will always have a flyer which will ruin an otherwise excellene 1/2 to 3/4 MOA group. Barrel quality does make a difference.