Law Enforcement Applications

[Steyr94]

All these other threads are military related, I haven't seen a single law enforcement thread. Therefore, I would like to start one. I'm hoping you guys are willing to discuss this. To start off, I think the long range ability of this cartridge, combined with light weight and recoil, could mostly replace .308 rifles currently in police/SWAT armories.

[txgunner00]

I agree. Improved terminal ballistics over 5.56, interchangeable parts with their carbines, lighter recoil, etc. The vast majority of law enforcement sharpshooting scenarios are under 100 yds. .308 is not necessary IMO.

[Steyr94]

My thought exactly, except for the extremely rare occasion where some kind of IMMENSELY THICK barrier must be penetrated, .308 should be scrapped.

[stanc]

All these other threads are military related, I haven't seen a single law enforcement thread. Therefore, I would like to start one. I'm hoping you guys are willing to discuss this.

I'm not sure how much of a discussion is possible, but here are my thoughts. Yes, 6.5 Grendel would seem well suited to LE use.

Nearly all engagement distances for LE are very short range. With expanding bullets, lethality/incapacitation ought to be more than adequate.

The lesser recoil (compared to .308 Win) would enhance the ability of police marksmen to make precision shots, vital in hostage situations.

In contrast to military use, ammo load is not an issue, so 5.56 carbines and SBRs could also be Grendelized, thereby allowing one caliber to replace two (5.56 and 7.62).

Next question?

[stanc]

My thought exactly, except for the extremely rare occasion where some kind of IMMENSELY THICK barrier must be penetrated, .308 should be scrapped.

Has such a barrier ever been encountered in LE operations?

Is there any reason to think that such a barrier could not be defeated by 6.5 Grendel?

[txgunner00]

Has such a barrier ever been encountered in LE operations?

Is there any reason to think that such a barrier could not be defeated by 6.5 Grendel?

Stopping vehicles is the only really think I can think of a 6.5 G be just as effective. A 308 is not going to penetrate an engine block anyway.

[LRRPF52]

Glass penetration is something looked at and relied on with the .308, although a hostage scenario in a bank proved fatal for many hostages after an LE shooter tried to hit the perpetrator through the window. It would be important to do side-by-side tests with Grendel loads and .308 to see if there are any short-range advantages with the Grendel and certain bullet weights, versus the .308. I think most agencies have addressed this with bullet construction, at least for the ones who have addressed it at all.

[stanc]

Yes, bullet construction is critical to performance on barriers.

[Variable]

One of the original feathers in the Grendel cartridge's cap was it's performance on glass rated to stop 7.62 while at a Blackwater event-- IIRC. Bill A. Punched a 144 Lapua right on through, and the gun world noticed.LOL While the heaviest bullets aren't the Grendels cup of tea for long range, BC is king for penetration in some scenarios, and the Grendel can definitely bring that to the table....

[Variable]

I'm not sure how much of a discussion is possible, but here are my thoughts. Yes, 6.5 Grendel would seem well suited to LE use.

Nearly all engagement distances for LE are very short range. With expanding bullets, lethality/incapacitation ought to be more than adequate.

The lesser recoil (compared to .308 Win) would enhance the ability of police marksmen to make precision shots, vital in hostage situations.

In contrast to military use, ammo load is not an issue, so 5.56 carbines and SBRs could also be Grendelized, thereby allowing one caliber to replace two (5.56 and 7.62).

Next question?

Well said Stan. I couldn't add anything other than that I wish my agency would figure all of that out and switch me over from 5.56... While I agree with LRRPF52 that 5.56 is generally quite adequate for military small arms use, I personally would still opt for the Grendel any day for LE. Ammo load is much less of a factor for LE, so I'd opt to bring more smackdown to the table given the opportunity. Of course, the thought of free Grendel ammo at work might have something to do with it too...LOL

[LRRPF52]

For general patrol use, that 95gr VMAX would be brutal at over 2800 fps. If State and Local LE Agencies would tell the ATF to pound sand and adopt SBR's, they could have a more viable platform for maneuvering out of the vehcile compartment, and those trained as DMR's could deploy heavier barreled SPR-type surgical sticks for scenarios calling for that tool.

It would be nice to see receivers based on a beefier design, using the Magul 6.8 magazine if feasible, or a purpose-built Grendel PMAG that goes in a Grendel-specific lower, with a longer COAL. With a Grendel specific bolt & barrel extension built from the ground up, we could utilize the high-pressure capabilities of the Grendel case without worrying about the .222 Remington AR15 bolt that has been clung to since 1957, even after Armalite increased the pressures with the .223 Remington.

[BluntForceTrauma]

I seem to remember reading that most LE sniping situations are at range of 75 yards or less. Pretty sure a head-shot with any caliber will resolve the situation.

It's the penetration requirements make things interesting, and the 65G's versatility brings capability. Was once told by Bill A. that different materials require different projectile characteristics. Armored glass, for example, is best penetrated by heavy and slow projectiles, such as the 144gr FMJBT wherein the glass has time to "move out of the way."

Whether one's favorite theory is light and fast or heavy and slow, there's a 65G load or that. ;-)

John

[OldCannon]

For general patrol use, that 95gr VMAX would be brutal at over 2800 fps. If State and Local LE Agencies would tell the ATF to pound sand and adopt SBR's, they could have a more viable platform for maneuvering out of the vehcile compartment, and those trained as DMR's could deploy heavier barreled SPR-type surgical sticks for scenarios calling for that tool.

I'm confused. Are you saying you can get 2800 FPS from a 10"-ish barrel with 95gr VMAX? Seems like you'd get a lot of collateral damage, as the concussive blast would kill anybody near the shooter

Honestly though, I've never really considered the Grendel in a SBR configuration. Would you get complete gas expansion to drive that kind of FPS?

[LRRPF52]

I'm confused. Are you saying you can get 2800 FPS from a 10"-ish barrel with 95gr VMAX? Seems like you'd get a lot of collateral damage, as the concussive blast would kill anybody near the shooter

Honestly though, I've never really considered the Grendel in a SBR configuration. Would you get complete gas expansion to drive that kind of FPS?

You can get 2700fps with the 100gr NBT out of a 16" barrel, and the 100 NBT has a lot of bearing surface-way more than the 95gr VMAX. David Fortier has been getting much higher velocities than expected with his 12" Grendel, even with 123gr AMAX.

With a beefier bolt, you could easily push the 85gr-95gr pills very fast out of Grendel SBR's. I don't think a 10" barrel is the best length, but I do like 11.5" and 12.5" AR15 SBR's.

[OldCannon]

You can get 2700fps with the 100gr NBT out of a 16" barrel, and the 100 NBT has a lot of bearing surface-way more than the 95gr VMAX. David Fortier has been getting much higher velocities than expected with his 12" Grendel, even with 123gr AMAX.

With a beefier bolt, you could easily push the 85gr-95gr pills very fast out of Grendel SBR's. I don't think a 10" barrel is the best length, but I do like 11.5" and 12.5" AR15 SBR's.

That's impressive. I didn't think 10 could do it, that's why I said 10-inch-ish -- a 12.5" barrel with a brake (better still: suppressor) would do nicely though.

[Variable]

Bill Alexander listed a load on the old board for the Lapua bullet out of a 10.5" barrel. Problem is I can't remember if it was the 100gr. or the 108gr. bullet. I can't remember the powder either, but the velocity was an honest 2500fps. IIRC...

What do you guys think the best powder (velocity wise) would be for an 85gr. Sierra out of a 10.5" barrel? I meant to try it back a long time ago but never did. I loaded some up for my 19.5" in the beginning, but the 120Nosler BTs were so accurate I never even finished shooting the first test batch for it.

Since the topic is up again, I'd be willing to load some 85 grainers up and chrono them out of my 10.5" to see what the numbers are. I bought most of the popular powders back when I first started, but I haven't kept up lately.

ETA: H335?

[fanofflyn]

I use H335 to push a 100gr TTSX out a 14 inch TC contender at 2600. Lead core bullets would have more case room and would likely perform as well with a SBR. I think the trouble with a department is having different loads for different barrel lengths, as the optimal load for a SBR may not be safe for a 24 inch rifle in hot weather, or the Rifle load may not perform in an SBR. I'm sure it would be possible, but I'm also sure that a department would want you to pick a mag and shoot without worrying if this is the right load or not. This load does work at higher velocities in my rifles, but I haven't checked all scenarios, and all possible increased chamber pressure situations.

[txgunner00]

I don't think it will necessarily be too much trouble. A 24" barreled rifle would be used for special and limited applications. No different than a carbine vs. a precision rifle presently being used. A major advantage of a single caliber would be the loads could interchange if necessary. Chamber pressures wouldn't change that much from a load optimized for a SBR vs. a load optimized for a SPR/ precision rifle. There may be issues with over/under pressure through the gas operating system but that can be addressed.

[rkflorey]

The American Sniper Association (active LE and Military snipers) did a study and sent out surveys to Police Dept. throughout the nation asking if the agency had been involved in a designated marksman type shooting and the circumstances over the last 20 years. The agencies that responded totaled just over 200 shootings. The "average" shooting distance was approx. 47 yds. Some were short (15 feet) and a very few were long (over 200 yds.) The 75 yd. number was attributed to the FBI and they refute ever giving that number.
The bank shooting spoken of earlier where hostages were killed because of the sniper "missing" was attributed to laminated glass that the sniper did not know the composition of and is a vitally important factor when taking such a shot.
The critical factor in LE embracing the Grendel is ammunition availability and cost. Most agencies use factory ammo for liability reasons, and at this point there are not enough choices ( available history/tests) to bring them into the fold.
I would not hesitate to carry my Grendel if I was still working, but know they would not allow it. If I was deploying in a Sniper role I would have to do a considerable amount of expensive testing before I would trust the Grendel in penetration and deflection issues before trusting it like I do the .308. There are too many factors that are unknown about the Grendel and its capabilities. My 2 cents......Kevin

[Steyr94]

I would have to do a considerable amount of expensive testing before I would trust the Grendel in penetration and deflection issues before trusting it like I do the .308. There are too many factors that are unknown about the Grendel and its capabilities...

I agree with you there. I'm not sure(correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't think that the Grendel outpowers the .308 untill a little somewhere after around the 1,000 yard mark.