So I have a friend who works for one of the gun manufacturers that does not currently have a 6.5 Grendel in their line. I have been pushing for him to get his engineers working on one. I even suggested today that I am happy to do load testing for him. He said they were kicking around the idea of mini actions. It dawned on my in our conversation that I should pick yalls brains about the pros and cons of current Grendel offerings and pass it along to him and MAYBE they might get on with it and make us the PERFECT Grendel bolt gun.
Lets hear what you got.
02-18-2023, 10:41 PM (This post was last modified: 02-18-2023, 11:15 PM by Harpoon1.)
Can you divulge a little more without spilling the beans? Whos footprint? CZ, Savage, Remington, Other . Control round vs push feed! Left hand metric threads vs right hand standard? Anything?
I personally am a huge CZ 527 control round feed fanboy! Had I only known, I would have purchased a ship load of those mini actions and called it good!
I dont have any scientific evidence one way or the other to persuade anyone else but, after the CZ 527, I find the Howa push feed mini action a very close second! So ..???????
As you can tell one of the major issues with the Howa is the magazine. Their mini action is good but their magazine implementation sucks. I have a CZ and while the magazine works flawlessly Im not a fan of having one that protrudes so far below the bottom of the stock. If either they Howa or CZ had a better magazine implementation it would be a toss up as to which is better. Im not a fan of the Ruger as its simply a lot of action and unnecessary weight for a cartridge the size of a 6.5 Grendel - not a fan of AR magazines in bolt guns anyway but thats personnel preference as I havent found that having a large magazine full of ammunition makes a difference hunting game where one or two at most shots usually does the job or you simply dont get the animal because you missed.
I vote for the CZ 527 controlled round loading. As far as the hang down part under the action, I do not find it objectionable, it is not as obtrusive as a 27 rounder in an AR.
"A Patriot must always be ready to defend his Country against his government"
Edward Abbey
"Stay out of trouble, Never give up, Never give in, Watch you're six, Hold the line, Stay Frosty."
Dr. Sabastian Gorka, Hungarian by birth, American Patriot by Beliefs.
I havent handled or shot a Centerfire CZ but have both Howa and Ruger. Personal preference are the Howa with an aftermarket BDL/Obendorff magazine (JSO or Oregunsmithing). Or have the Howa set up to take AR/STANAG magazines. That is the one place that gives the Ruger a big check box over the Howa. Of course this is my opinion.
02-19-2023, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 02-19-2023, 07:37 PM by VASCAR2.)
I have a Cz 527 American and I like if fine but I like having an internal magazine and flush floor plate like Jefferson Outdoors (HPK sells). Im not sure if both options could be accommodated but three to four round internal mag would be enough for me.
I have had and have howa, and have had a couple rugers. I don't like the ruger mag (AR) b/c it was not a reliable feeder, plus rounds that are shorter would pop up and jam against the barrel face without going in. The howa mag feeds great but it's release mechanism can be too hard or too easy to work. A five round detachable mag is fine, or maybe 4-round detach. Not a fan of internal mags b/c the top feed issue is tough with a small cartridge.
And the stock - the stock!!! Plastic is ok if you have to but make sure it is at least serviceable, like the accustock, or has some ability for an add-on cheek riser. And not so flimsy as to flex and touch the barrel in the forend. Ruger, howa and savage all failed in the stock part.
I like the Savage style barrel nuts, so you can swap barrels without need of a gun smith.
Should take or use picatinny rails, not proprietary rings or such.
Common SAE thread, 5/8-24 for muzzle devices.
I like the 20" howa HB style, the ruger has a 22" which is fine too b/c it is thick enough to be threaded, which is what I look for in a barrel.
Howa has a 5-r style internal twist/lands which is better imo than the 4- or 6, the off-set of the lands in the cross section is a plus for a small cartridge to push the bullet through. If it's not radiused (to save some cost) that's fine but 5 lands not 6. Savage and some ARs are this way also so it's not uncommon.
Use a 1:8 twist rate, not 1:9. 7.5 would be ok but 8 is probably more standard, so would be better cost-wise.
Definitely a mini action not just a 308-style with a bolt-shortener (like Axis does).
The bottom metal should be metal not plastic, the howa bottom plastic is basically DOA..
Savage style floating bolt head is fine or a ruger style one-piece bolt is ok too, but disassembly for cleaning should be regular-tech friendly not needing, again, a gun smith or lots of proprietary tools. Savage is better than ruger's in this regard.
Trigger - now their lawyers could prevent this I guess - adjustable for ~3-5 lb, personally I like about 2.5 but 3 is ok.
Finally, to me selling a gun is about good engineering but also about parts availability, so a guy can swap out parts or improve it or change out a faulty/failed part. Make sure after-mkt or oem parts will be available. Like stocks, triggers, rings, muzzle devices, but also mags, action screws etc. If a gun won't shoot moa with a decent load it is not worth much to me.
"Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"
One more thing, it would be important to have a mag that allows slightly longer than 2.260 OALs, like a min of 2.290-2.300, for some of the heavies (129 even up to 140) that some guys like to shoot. And the freebore to accommodate them too. No short throats, period.
Which brings to mind, use a Saami chamber with the dual-angle cut going into the lands, not a straight style, 264Lbc type. Actual Saami.
"Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"
I Mini action that allowed 2.400 or even 2.500 COL with the magazine would be very beneficial to hand-loaders.
I always felt constrained with the Howa Mini with the standard COL limits. I clipped the magazine, but that only allowed loading maybe 2 cartridges longer than the normal COL.
NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
All those on the list are detachable mags, how many hinged floor plates have been sold for those that prefer that option?
A small action like on the Kimber 84 would be cool IMO at a mag length for seating out to 2.400 or perhaps a little longer.
Collect enough older firearms that mags that were under 10 dollars new are now selling for 100 or more will make you think about mags and getting spares for your mag guns. There are a few extras new in packages for my CZ 527s for that reason.
I also appreciate a short bolt lift and 60 degrees is very nice compared to most of the 2 lug bolts so as long as it is "NEW" 3 lug action. My favorite one I own is a Cooper. I also have several Remington 788s that have 9 lugs but the same 60degree bolt lift. Keeps a standard bolt handle further than the scope in cycling.
A few years ago, before George Floyd, Covid, BLM riots all over, I had a really funny feeling it was time to start doing some buying. One of my "PPE" buys was a Ruger Ranch in 6.5 Grendel. I restocked it with a Boyd's AT-1 stock. It took some modification to work like they said it should. I had to buy longer bolts, the ones they sent would even reach the action. I had to open up the barrel channel so it would free float, rework the mag release and adjust the comb of the stock so the bolt would open, all of which Boyd's said I was wrong on.
In the end, I ended up with this. I had also purchased four 200 round plastic ammo cans of the Hornady American Gunner ammo. 123 Match HP, which they no longer make. I have only shot this ammo out of it and am just getting around to reloading for it. I hope the 3 pictures show up.
With factory ammo, it will shoot 3/4 MOA groups all day long, 5 round or ten round groups.
Love the gun, will take standard A/R Grendel mags, have a whole bunch of 25 rounds that work off of this gun, no issues but too cumbersome with long mags. Only issue now is all the sharp corners in the stock and mags, not a comfortable gun to carry.
Also purchased 2 more in 5.56 and 300 BLK, with the same stocks, I am a glutton for punishment, in different colors. All Mag loaded rifles in my safe are color coded with magazines for easy grab and go.[ATTACH=CONFIG]19525[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19526[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19527[/ATTACH]
02-21-2023, 07:26 AM (This post was last modified: 02-21-2023, 07:32 AM by Redleg11B.)
Had the option for a Ruger Predator or a Howa Mini with the sporter barrel. I would have preferred an 18" midweight threaded barrel on the Howa action. Trigger is better on the Howa too. I had a Ranch 5.56, and while handi, I was also not a fan of the magazine protruding. The 7.62x39 Ruger Ranch I had with 5 round mini'30 mags was nicer in that regard. In fact, I hadn't even run rounds through the factory Howa mag before I ordered a Jeffrson Outdoor hinged bottom metal conversion. I am very happy with it. I like the stock on the Ruger better (thinner and slightly more rigid).
I had a CZ527 in 22 Hornet, and one in 223. I loved the set trigger, hated the mags. They were good rifles, but weren't perfect enough to keep when the chips were down years ago.
Wish list to do it again: 18" threaded 5/8x24 barrel, BDL floorplate from the factory or a reliable flush fit DBM, more rigid stock (wood and a matte stainless action and barrel would be perfect).
02-21-2023, 09:07 PM (This post was last modified: 02-21-2023, 09:49 PM by Stinky Coyote.)
TedBrewer5 Wrote:I will say other and push feed
Browning perhaps? Lets go. Be nice to see some quality options other than these three we fight over now. Be nice to see first stainless one.
Ruger, bolt doesn't lock down on safe. Otherwise it's perfect for the money, no smithing required, the working mans option. Shoot good, robust, good trigger, good stock good bottom end/magazine (and two options to boot -AR/Mini).
Howa, 3 position safety and bolt locks down, same with CZ bolt locks down on safe. The CZ safety backwards from recollection. Howa safety knob itself is stamped with no grip, it's awful. The push feed is okay but needs light tension from round underneath to feed and eject smoothly. It's scaled nicely but can't get stainless and the stock, and the bottom plastic and horrendous magazine are Mattel plastic garbage that doesn't suit the quality of metal at all. To get a howa the same all around as the ruger you need to replace stock and bottom end...then value is completely lost as it costs way more than ruger.
The CZ is a gem that only wears in, but my American needed pillar bedding, then polish the action with cycling and jb bore compound, then polish feed lips of magazine, and the cz is annoyingly short on rear of action so short eye relief scopes look best on it, the howa almost the same, leupold 4x33 is short enough, but the 3-9x33 ultralight is perfect, also was hard to find low enough rings for the cz, I think it was Warne or millet had the lowest 'medium' of all the mediums. Love the cz American but it took the most work and thought to set up properly, the highest quality one and worthy though...still no stainless.
The ruger ends up being my winner by a lot of defaults when choosing from the 3. It offers most function and value with least amount of fuss, literally out of the box kitchen table build, maybe polish bottom of bolt yourself and take a couple coils off the spring of the AR mags as bolt actions don't need that extra pressure the gas guns like. Just minor to help snickity snick up that feeding a bit on the first rounds from the mag.
But a ruger Hawkeye stainless (walnut with red recoil pad), or like their old m77 boat paddle 7.62x39 stainless with better stock than boat paddle and in grendel are things I dream about. Also sako XS action, again, stainless finnlight or carbon would be others I've dreamt of in grendel.
And if browning wants to see it's first green from my wallet...build the nice x-bolts off that .223 length action and the hunting models I've seen with the bronze cerekote and those little carbon stock bad boys...yup, that would get my attention.
Kimber montana variants in stainless be nice one in grendel with shortened action, actually be perfect but can't see them going shorter than a standard short action. Do they have .223's?
20" pipes please. If you do the theme for this cartridge do it all the way through. Legacy sports with the howa mini couldn't get anything right, can't even bring stainless to maybe the largest market for rifles going yet offer it in markets they must only sell so few (Australia etc.), would like to see them disappear from this earth for their ineptness lol.
Detach mags, if browning may be able to get 5 in the flush rotary eh? That'd be sick. Sako 85 XS would easily see 5-6 in their flush fit amazing magazines. Can't see sako playing but that really would be the pinnacle, they have sweet actions and bottom ends and finish/fit/detail at the top of food chain. So I hope who you're talking to offers that next level of rifle quality over the stuff we're getting now. The 6.5 Grendel is a worthy cartridge!
Won't be interested in anything savage and pretty sure Remington is dead right? Stainless 700's or 7's on the .223 length action would be a volume builders option back in the day but feel like they are dead. Don't know enough about barret field craft but thought I saw they were gonna release one at shot show one year, nice little stainless number, got excited about that then military contracts took over perhaps and they got too busy fulfilling those to carry on?
And tikka t3x lite stainless would be sweet also, whatever formula they have is a good one! Just can't hold breath on the fin's to get with cartridges in timely fashion. And the super short case in the full length action is annoying, I've had several .204's but the long blocked magazines just don't work for the shorties, awesome rifles for longer cartridges.
Whew, that was a mouthful. Hope that helps.
edit, when people new to game ask advice on what to get for all round hunting set up, rifle/scope/cartridge...I tell them tikka t3x lite stainless in 6.5 Creedmoor, Trijicon accupoint 3-9x40 green (either mil or duplex). Likely the most future proof buy once and never need anything again set up. try to develop something that could earn that sort of recommendation I guess
02-21-2023, 09:45 PM (This post was last modified: 02-21-2023, 10:42 PM by Stinky Coyote.)
Kenny Howard Wrote:A few years ago, before George Floyd, Covid, BLM riots all over, I had a really funny feeling it was time to start doing some buying. One of my "PPE" buys was a Ruger Ranch in 6.5 Grendel. I restocked it with a Boyd's AT-1 stock. It took some modification to work like they said it should. I had to buy longer bolts, the ones they sent would even reach the action. I had to open up the barrel channel so it would free float, rework the mag release and adjust the comb of the stock so the bolt would open, all of which Boyd's said I was wrong on.
In the end, I ended up with this. I had also purchased four 200 round plastic ammo cans of the Hornady American Gunner ammo. 123 Match HP, which they no longer make. I have only shot this ammo out of it and am just getting around to reloading for it. I hope the 3 pictures show up.
With factory ammo, it will shoot 3/4 MOA groups all day long, 5 round or ten round groups.
Love the gun, will take standard A/R Grendel mags, have a whole bunch of 25 rounds that work off of this gun, no issues but too cumbersome with long mags. Only issue now is all the sharp corners in the stock and mags, not a comfortable gun to carry.
Also purchased 2 more in 5.56 and 300 BLK, with the same stocks, I am a glutton for punishment, in different colors. All Mag loaded rifles in my safe are color coded with magazines for easy grab and go.[ATTACH=CONFIG]19525[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19526[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19527[/ATTACH]
Ya I learned the Boyd's lesson also, put the factory stock back on and sell that one. They are tanks. I put one zombie green 'AT-One' like that on my cz to fit the kids at one point, it came in over 3/4's lb heavier than the factory stock...total tank, chunky, sharp edges everywhere. My poor wallet. I still have it I think, it's brand spanking new, up in Canada though. Good for the bench rigs, American inlet though.
Or, go mdt chassis, 2 point sling, strike industries buffer tube, magpul ctr butt stock, magpul moe-k grip, add 3 slot rail for the baldr o-light mini light/laser, and a much lighter optic to have your zombie defence set up much better than the Boyds option and that Hubble telescope. You'll be right around 8 1/4 lbs all up if you only add a 1" tube scope in the 3-9 range, you can ditch the rail for talley rings and save 2 ounces. Ask me how I know all this? the pistol grip chassis are made for two point sling carry, it's very AR esq. just not semi-automatic but sure looks like an AR.
I have only tried the CZ 527 bolt action & have loved for a lot of years now. With CZ 527 off the market there is defiantly room for another option. Not sure what to think on the 600. History has not been kind to the CZ600 thus far, IMHO.
Longer mag would defiantly have potential benefits. Not sure which would sell better 6mm ARC or 6.5 Grendel. Why choose, lets see both
