Hey guys have just got this from one of our owners I have been badgering him since last year for this. Now you may ask why has it taken so long to get the results on here well because the shooter says and I quote "I'm 71 I don't need to lie so if they don't believe me they can go whistle Dixie." Now thats because when we posted the info before a few basically called us liars and some said it was sales hype etc etc We feel it needs to be posted as people need to see the potential of the Grendel round. Some people say that the round is restricted to 200-300 yds for medium game (taken from a members reloading booklet) whatever that is but I have pics from a very happy satisfied customer who is a member of the forum who I will let post of a Caribou taken at 425yds the week before last in Alaska.He was using our hunter model upper shooting Hornady 123 sst who feels that he would have no problem using it on elk.
So here are the pics of the 1320 yd target and specs. The target is 1ft in diameter and you will see that all 5 shots are in a six inch diameter circle.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3899[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3898[/ATTACH]
THIS IS A 5 SHOT GROUP NOT 5 OUT OF EVER SO MANY SHOTS
Rifle DPMS lower with a 20 inch Quality Arms upper using a 20 inch Saturn Barrel
Scope Leopold 25x tmr
Nightforce 20MOA base
Bullet 123 grain Sierra Match King
Powder 30 grains ac2520
Altitude 2830 ft (Outside Boise Idaho)
Date 6/19/12
Temp approx 72F
So if you doubt the capability of the shooter and the round then you don't know what potential you have in shooting the Grendel. Dont listen to people who say it cant be done because they cant do it.
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Interesting.
The internal ballistics of your friends load in Quickload produces 64,800lbs of peak-pressure. The Grendel is 55,000lbs SAAMI. Quickload lists it as 54,000lbs. Your friends load exceeds SAAMI (stand back a bit when he's shooting).
For that length barrel Quickload predicts 2630fps, which in JBM shows it passing back through the sound barrier (buffeting) at 1150yards. My experience of shooting long-range sees the group potential balloon-out severely as projectiles go transonic. At our F Class range we have a saying for the sound barrier, it's like 'driving jelly'.
6" at 1320 yds is 0.434MOA which is certainly possible at 100yds.
If I could shoot 0.43 from an AR frame, at ranges beyond the sound barrier and regardless of wind or the jump-to-lands (fixed by the internal length of an AR magazine) I'd win all the long-range matches against the F Class shooters with their 8kg Stolle Panda's and BAT actions.
71 years old you say...Well, he's got my attention.
Ridgerider: Nice seeing you again at the Sandy Expo Center.
I was surprised when I shot my little 16" at 1200yds earlier this summer, but altitude was 4400ft ASL and 87F, with no wind and very dry air.
Klem: Quick Load is horrible for trying to get any usable data for the Grendel unless you know how to really tweak it. SAAMI MAOP for Grendel is actually 51,800psi in the AR15. I doubt 30.0gr of AA2520 is hitting 64,800psi unless you jammed into the lands of a really bad no-name chamber with a short throat.
When I shot at 1200yds, it was POA/POI for me with 14.4 Mils of elevation dialed-in on the initial shot, and then a little correction for the remaining 4 rounds. I'm going to have to wait until next summer to shoot in those conditions again, but I intend to spend more time at 700yds + with the little 16" to see what kind of groups I can get at distances I didn't think it would stay consistent at.
The Grendel Reloading Handbook chapter on Hunting Reach starts out with the account of one of our forum members who shot an antelope at 752yds after registering his rifle on a 4" rock at 727yds before the herd came along. Experienced hunters will say that the maximum effective, ethical range is largely dependent on the skill of the shooter. Most of your hunting bullets will stay above 1800fps out to 350-400yds from 16-20" Grendels.
There are some point blank zero tables with different wind conditions on page 25 of the handbook comparing a 14.5" Grendel to a .243 Winchester, showing how close they are when a 200yd zero is used with both.
I think we're all in agreement. I made a comment to sureshot at the Gun Show saying that "...everyone knows the Grendel is only good for punching paper, and you can't hunt with it!" just as a joke. He thought I was serious at first, not knowing who I was. I try to have fun, but my dry humor isn't caught by everyone right off the bat.
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under good conditions bullets can cross through the trans sonic barrier with out going wild but it is not something to be counted on
Punctuation is for the weak....
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Agree to some extent on what you are saying, especially with Quickload. Those Germans have put more disclaimers and conservative algorithms into it than a convention of risk managers. I find loads for many calibers right on the edge of what they predict is maximum turn out to be mild loads. Still, it is a useful tool I find.
I hear you on the shooting game at range and no arguments there. The high BC of the calibre makes it stand out from the crowd. But the sound barrier thing...I think we all agree that 1320yds is subsonic for a Grendel and I have never seen in 30years of shooting any round not being affected when passing back through the sound barrier. I've never seen 'wild' groups past the sound barrier but group sizes grow almost exponentially and you no longer have the luxury of 'chasing the spotter' (correcting by using the POI of the previous shot).
For example an F Class shooter/barrel capable of 0.5MOA at 100yds in theory should be 0.5MOA at 1,000. But it never is...it will be 1MOA, and that is before reaching the sound barrier. After the sound barrier and it balloons-out further.
I find those 5 shots at 1320yds amazing (don't read anything more into 'amazing', literal meaning only).
The funny thing about my ballistics program in the conditions when I shot to 1200yds with a 16" was that it showed me supersonic out to 1318yds. If they had really dry air and higher mv with the 20", the 1320yds doesn't seem too hard to believe for me. There's another forum member who has video shooting 12" plates at 1130yds.
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Thanks for the post Ridgerider! I have been dying for you to post the information and new it was just a matter of time.
Keep shooting and bring us some more pictures and information. They need to hear it more often.
I'm watching for you and you have no reason to make anything up, keep the young man shooting but let him rest too.. 
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Oh, and also explain the milk jugs sitting around, they aren't full of moonshine, well as you said, sunshine...
Well as Tedward has asked about the milk jugs let me explain. As one gets older the eyesight isn't as good as it is when you are a whippersnapper so we need all the help we can get. You know white canes see and eye dogs a nice young lady on your arm etc. sorry don't tell the wife. But seriously the milk jugs full of water tend to refract the sunlight and can be seen very well in the conditions seen in the pic which helps us old farts. Now as for loads we also understand where to get information and it comes with age and experience its not rocket science its just being able to read and trust what Bill Alexander has on his web site under reloading
Now we are not people to sit back and say that's it so we will be posting more pics and more info and as LRPPF52 has already said "1320yds doesn't seem too hard to believe for me." if the conditions are right anything is possible for those that don't know Boise in the summer is very dry, now Florida on the other hand is like a swimming pool so don't expect the same results. Now with that in mind we along with our 71 year old shooter have been testing a 6.5 x 47 Lapua and stared pushing it out to mile (yea white cane and all ) but have not got access to the area in Boise anymore so we have a customer farmer here near Aberdeen Idaho who has also got an interest in shooting long distances who has found us a safe place on his property to be able to shoot a mile safely. Now with winter coming its going to be next spring before we are able to really get into it. Which brings us to what platform well at the moment we are using a bolt gun put together by ourselves and in the next few weeks we should have our ar10 in 6.5x47 available. So as they say watch this space for the next exciting episode. Hey LRRPF52 as the cats out the bag Sureshot and I will be back at Sandy I think November and hope to have the 6.5 x 47 AR10 there for all to see
Klem Wrote:My experience of shooting long-range sees the group potential balloon-out severely as projectiles go transonic. At our F Class range we have a saying for the sound barrier, it's like 'driving jelly'.
There have been some recent advances in bullet design to overcome the accuracy issues in transonic and subsonic conditions. Berger has come out with its line of "Tactical Bullets" which supposedly do so. I won't argue with the designer, Bryan Litz, since in fact, he was a real rocket scientist. He also manufactures and sells ammunition loaded with those bullets. Unfortunately, not yet in 6.5mm.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011...allistics/
Quote:Hey LRRPF52 as the cats out the bag Sureshot and I will be back at Sandy I think November and hope to have the 6.5 x 47 AR10 there for all to see
That was the chambering I was really looking into when having GA Precision do my last AR10, but I went with .260 Remington because of brass availability. I do like the performance of the 6.5x47 Lapua, and my Finnish cousins did their homework when they put that cartridge together. I like it because it uses a small rifle primer, and has good case design for efficient burning, and you're bound to have a very good case fill no matter what bullet you're loading.
My Irish partner has an RPA 6.5x47 Lapua that he pushed hard, running 140gr Bergers at 3000fps from a 25" barrel. You would have to yank the trigger if you could with that rifle to miss. He put down 900m targets at FinnSniper like it was easy or something (former Royal Marine Sniper).
As to transonic flight characteristics, I have shot a lot of .338 LM at extreme distances, and have observed some interesting things on aluminum silhouette targets. At one long range event, at about sea level in Finland, I noticed that some .338 LM projectiles had plowed through the targets in a keyhole shape, but at consistent orientation nose-up and at an angle. What appeared to be going on was the rotational spin of the bullets kept them oriented to the bore, so that when they passed over the maximum ordinate, they didn't nose over like a spear, but came in like the Space Shuttle with a high angle of attack, but still plenty supersonic.
I then considered the terminal ballistics implications if one were to be unfortunate as to find oneself in the crosshairs of a shooter equipped with such a weapon, especially these guys who were making reliable and consistent hits on man-size sils past 1100 meters. It would be ugly, to get hit with a 250gr pill like that plowing down at you in the highly arced path of the bullet's final milli-moments.
calshipbuilder
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I've been meaning to try the 123 SMKs. I've also seen videos showing that the 123 lapua is transonic stable
So as a follow up to a previous post I asked bob for some more info so here it is.
I got the powder load from the Alexander Arms Website which suggested 30.9 grains of A2520 with the 123 grain bullet. I backed off 0.9 grains and use the 30 grain load for this bullet weight exclusively. It should be noted that this powder is sensitive to the chamber temperature, based on my experience, after firing the 3 round in a 5 round series. The 5th round will result in an slightly expanded primer pocket and will no longer hold a new primer. I shoot sets of 3 rounds and then cool down.
I use the Remington 7-1/2 Bench Rest Small Primer which results in a velocity of 2550 fps. The two bullets used are the 123 grain Match king (BC@0.51) and the 123 Lapua Scenar (BC@0.547). I do need to re-run the chronograph effort in the near future.
This primer has been adapted exclusively based on some early work at Freedom Arms that I had the privilege to be a part of during the load development for the 454 Casull.
I use the Nightforce and Sierra Infinity Ballistics Programs for the base chart development as a function of Altitude and Outside Air Temperature. Site specific settings are adjusted using the Gunwerks HP PDA Ballistics Program calculator. The two primary locations are Idaho Falls @ 4700 feet and Boise, Idaho @ 2830 feet. Humidity is dry, normally runs in the 25 to 30 % range. So as density altitude works in you favor, increasing Outside Air Temperature, ranges can be extended significantly. Remember that an increasing Density Altitude is bad for aircraft but good for bullets, less drag..
This rifles is sighted in at 4880 feet and must be adjusted 2.0 MOA-UP when a bench is setup in Boise for the same ZERO; and then adjusted for temperature.
My Grendel is ZEROED at 700 yards at a range with an altitude of 4880 feet here in the Snake River Plane - North of Idaho Falls... When shooting suppressed, I loose 2.0 MOA which also must be taken in to the site specific location also.
I always us my temperature specific calculator for determining sonic velocity regardless of location during the planning phase. Sonic Velocity changes with altitude because the temperature drops 7-1/2 degrees per 1000 feet... At the bench, it is a function of the surrounding outside air temperature. It is a complicated formula but it can be found doing a Web search.
Depending on bullet selection (ie. Ballistics Coefficient) and temperature/humidity, the transition to transonic occurs in the 1200 to 1350 yard range for the 123 grain bullet. This is base on my calculations using the mentioned programs, not actually measured.
It is encouraging to see that someone asked about the milk jugs.. When you fill a milk jug with water, let the rays of the sun pass through it, they refract and light the jug up like a light bulb. I can see it at 1760 yards easily...!! I don't think anyone can hit something they can't see.. I like to be able to see what I'm shooting at. I think someone asked once why I was shooting at JUNK.. I didn't explain it then but now you know.
By the way, the limit on my Grendel setup is 1425 yards, I have 5 rounds in a jug at this distance with the 123 grain Lapua Scenar bullet and 80 degrees on the OAT and low humidity at Boise, Idaho. That photograph was posted a year ago and everyone seemed to be in dis-belief.... That is 20 MOA in the base, 40.5 MOA on the dial up, and the lowest hold-over bar in the Leupold TMR Scope (Plus 4 X 3.6 = MOA)...
Wind is another day....
Good stuff. Wringing out the precision!
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Thanks Guy's... It is a little more than just putting powder in a case and shooting it sounds. Very good report. Sounds like Bob has a little experience haa....
For those distances over 600yds, I prefer to use the G7 drag model for BC's, but you can also use the doppler radar data for the Scenar from Lapua with Quick Target Unlimited. Brian Litz does evaluated BC figures for many popular bullets, and I think he had the 123gr 6.5mm Scenar in the .52-ish range.
Lapua just released their radar data on the new Scenar-L series of 6.5mm bullets, and I noticed that they have the 123gr Scenar listed at .527 G1 BC, .263 G7 BC.
They have a new 120gr Scenar-L, and 136gr Scenar-L for the 6.5mm offerings. I have samples of the 120gr Scenar-L. They're using a more stringent manufacturing process to control jacket construction and jacket-core concentricity, as well as core alloy construction and uniformity.
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