Shooting Angle

[Nimrod]

This is very important when figuring bullet drop especially when shooting or hunting in mountain country. I am looking for advice, techniques, and or equipment to help estimate/determine the angle I am shooting at. Currently I am just estimating, but that is not good enough anymore. What do you guys do?

[Nukes]

We use a Horus ASLI (Angle Slope Level Indicator) through a Spuhr AA-0023 ACI mount to the Spuhr SP-4016 cantilever mount.

I like the Horus product because it indicates both the angle and the cosine. As far as I could find, competitors' products only indicate one or the other. There are, of course, other mount options, but we are very happy with our Spuhr mounts.

[LRRPF52]

Most of your ballistics programs will have an angle and cosine function in them. For cave-man solutions, you can carry a whiz wheel, like the kind Todd Hodnett uses. You can send in your load specs and get a custom whiz wheel made for your rifle. The Whiz Wheel has angle inclination correction solutions on it.

https://www.accuracy1stdg.com/store/item...prodID=494

[Nukes]

The Horus ASLI and other manufacturers' ACI's simply indicate the correction factor to be multiplied by your slant range distance.

If your ASLI reads .98 (or whatever), just multiply that times your slant range.

There are also higher end range finders that read both horizontal and slant range, e.g., the Vectronix 25C.

[NugginFutz]

Both the bushnell lrf's I own provide both true range and "shoot as" range. If you are using an inclinometer in conjunction with any lrf's, my thinking is that you may as well get a range finder that does the math for you.

It's when you forgoe any electronics, that I see the application for gizmos such as nukes mentions.

[Nukes]

Since you have two, I infer that you are very happy with the Bushnells. Any review you'd like to offer?

[NugginFutz]

Since you have two, I infer that you are very happy with the Bushnells. Any review you'd like to offer?

Well, to begin with, anyone can look up the features and specs on these range finders, so I’ll try to stick to the real world experiences.

The two I have are a 5 year old Legend 1200 ARC, and a new (2013) Elite 1600 ARC.

I have been happy with the performance of the 1200, up to a point. Though rated for 1200 yards, I discovered that figure really only applies to barn doors and skyscrapers. Realistically, it would range fur reliably to 400, trees and rocks to about 900, and large "shiny" stuff to 1200-1300.

As my long-range skills improved, though, I needed something better. I’d read some reviews, here and there, and was very close to buying the Leica 1600B. My inner Scrooge got the best of me, and I bought the Elite 1600ARC at half the price.

I have not regretted it, for one minute. (Well, one, but more on that, later.) The 1600 is constantly challenging me to find things it won’t range. I have ranged small trees and outcroppings out to 1500 yards, and buildings to 1750. I have only been in the field once, with this model, but each fur-bearing critter I ranged gave it no trouble. IIRC, the longest was a steer at 650. I haven’t had an opportunity to range any fur further out, but hopefully I’ll be out again, this month. As far as repeatability goes, it is just plain good. I ranged several targets multiple times, at varying distances, and always got the same reading. No complaints, there.

Both Bushnell ARC LRFs have 3 target modes: Normal, Bulls-eye, and Brush. Normal allows one to scan with constant readouts off any ranged surfaces. Bulls-eye allows me to pinpoint smaller critters or targets. Basically, this mode uses the nearer return, and ignores the more distant targets. Brush mode helps range through branches or brush in the foreground, done by essentially performing the reverse of Bulls-eye mode. I have found that the modes work reasonably well, in their respective capacities.

They have 8 different drop groups, and variable sight-in distances, which allow them to offer "ball-park" hold overs, in inches of drop or in MOA. If shooting different calibers, it is quite easy to select a different group. Personally, I don’t find this feature as helpful as I thought I would, since I now use my iPhone for ballistic solutions, based on real world conditions (temp, humidity, pressure). This gives me superior drop estimations that the range finders just can’t deliver, but I don’t fault them. They work off the 8 most common loads, and I don’t shoot any of them.

Both the 1200 and 1600 also have built-in inclinometers, which display your shooting angle, in degrees, and the “shoot to” range. This is key, as I am able to use either when reading my drop chart or running numbers through the ballistic program. I have checked the “shoot to” ranges against line of sight vs. angle of calculations, and it has always been within a yard or two. This allows me to key fewer variables into the program, and also allows me to directly refer to my stock table, if conditions are compatible. In short, I know I can trust the yardage readouts.

The optics are decent on both, with adjustable eyepieces for those of us who wear glasses, but the 1600 has a 7x26 objective. This actually serves fairly well as a monocular. While it doesn’t replace a good pair of bino’s, it is still quite useable and could possibly save some bulk, if space/weight are at a premium.

The pros of the Legend 1200 ARC:

• Simple, On/Range button above eyepiece.
  
• Great ergonomics – fits well in the hand.
  
• LCD display is clear and easy to read during daylight hours.
  
• Compact, and easily slips into either a hip or breast jacket pocket. This is the principal reason I still own this LRF. At about 8 ounces, it's very convenient when out on coyote hunts.
  
• “Rain Guard” optics. These really work. They shed rain/drizzle, and don’t fog at all.
  
• Built in tripod mount.
  

The cons of the Legend 1200 ARC:

• Ranging can be a little slow, especially at longer distances.
  
• Ranging critters falls off pretty steadily beyond 400 yards.
  
• At ranges over 800, a pretty steady hand or tripod is needed, partly due to its size and weight.
  
• Twilight performance leaves a bit to be desired, because the display is non-illuminated.
  
• Setup button is on the side, which sometimes gets pressed without intent.
  

The pros of the Elite 1600 ARC:

• Good controls – single On/Range button on top, with the setup button out of the way, next to the eyepiece.
  
• Excellent ranging capabilities.
  
• Very steady, as it is heavier than the 1200 by 4.5 ounces.
  
• Fast ranging. Returns are up within a second.
  
• Good twilight performance, as the 1600 uses an LED display.
  
• “Rain Guard” optics.
  
• 100% waterproof. (But I don’t think it ranges underwater.)
  
• Built in tripod mount.
  

The cons of the Elite 1600 ARC:

• LED display can be difficult to read in full daylight. (My one real regret)
  
• Somewhat bulkier than the 1200, and weighs more, at 12 ounces.
  
• Ergonomics aren’t as good as the 1200, as the horizontal configuration pretty much lends itself to two hand use, as a pair of bino’s would.
  

Are there other, better range finders out there? Of course! But I guarantee you will pay more for them. My personal dream LRF is the Gunwerks G7 BR2, but at $1,600, I can’t overcome my inner Scrooge.

[LR1955]

This is very important when figuring bullet drop especially when shooting or hunting in mountain country. I am looking for advice, techniques, and or equipment to help estimate/determine the angle I am shooting at. Currently I am just estimating, but that is not good enough anymore. What do you guys do?

Nimrod:

Why aren't your estimations 'good enough' anymore?

Most likely, there is a fix that won't cost you a huge sum of money.

My experiences.

When you really need a laser range finder, it is normally snowing and raining, the lenses get covered with crap and fog, and you find the batteries are dead. Seems like a person never needs one when it is nice and sunny outside.

Let me suggest you use a ballistics program and see under what angle and distances you really need to come up or down or risk missing your entire target. Then find hand held laser range finders that work on 20 X 20 inch targets past about 500 yards under field conditions (background, obscurants, poor rests, use with gloves, battery life, etc.). You may find that the conditions would have to be extreme before you missed due to not taking off enough elevation or holding low enough.

I have tried to find terrain that allows for this type of training but even in rugged desert terrain, couldn't. You would either have to tie the shooter to an object to keep him from tumbling down a cliff or there were too many obstructions for uphill shots. The only firing points I could find meant shots well past 600 meters where wind and range estimation had a greater effect on hit or miss than slant angle. I looked for this type of terrain and couldn't find it so figured that under most conditions, all the gizmo's were unnecessary and to just hold at the bottom of the kill zone.

If you think you need to take off elevation for a shot due to slant angle, hold bottom of kill zone. If you want to try it, you need 3 dimensional targets that are full size.

LR1955

[frank]

Wow- Great reviews Nuggin!

[Nimrod]

Nimrod:

Why aren't your estimations 'good enough' anymore?

Most likely, there is a fix that won't cost you a huge sum of money.

My experiences.

When you really need a laser range finder, it is normally snowing and raining, the lenses get covered with crap and fog, and you find the batteries are dead. Seems like a person never needs one when it is nice and sunny outside.

Let me suggest you use a ballistics program and see under what angle and distances you really need to come up or down or risk missing your entire target. Then find hand held laser range finders that work on 20 X 20 inch targets past about 500 yards under field conditions (background, obscurants, poor rests, use with gloves, battery life, etc.). You may find that the conditions would have to be extreme before you missed due to not taking off enough elevation or holding low enough.

I have tried to find terrain that allows for this type of training but even in rugged desert terrain, couldn't. You would either have to tie the shooter to an object to keep him from tumbling down a cliff or there were too many obstructions for uphill shots. The only firing points I could find meant shots well past 600 meters where wind and range estimation had a greater effect on hit or miss than slant angle. I looked for this type of terrain and couldn't find it so figured that under most conditions, all the gizmo's were unnecessary and to just hold at the bottom of the kill zone.

If you think you need to take off elevation for a shot due to slant angle, hold bottom of kill zone. If you want to try it, you need 3 dimensional targets that are full size.

LR1955

You are right about holding low, but my ballistic program tells me that an error of just ten degrees can change my point of impact by 9" at 500 Yards and I just simply want to be better than that. Where I am hunting we often are shooting up and down hill sometimes at pretty steep angles. I need a new range finder anyway so I think a good answer would be one that gives me the angle or accounts for it.

I appreciate all the replies and advice from all of you.

[zbay]

A protractor with a weighted string (plum bob) to find the angle and a small calculator is probably the cheapest method I can think of to correct for slope in a long distance shot. This probably also requires some solid range estimation skills (milling the target). Then your corrected shot distance should be calculated with

uncorrected range(Cos(angle))= corrected range

hope this helps

[MrFrankZ]

Have any of your guys played with Strelok+ or Pro? Granted, it is using a camera on a cell phone that is less than "precision" device but it seems like it would give a close enough guesstimation.

[Nukes]

Well, to begin with, anyone can look up the features and specs on these range finders, so I’ll try to stick to the real world experiences.

The two I have are a 5 year old Legend 1200 ARC, and a new (2013) Elite 1600 ARC.

I have been happy with the performance of the 1200, up to a point. Though rated for 1200 yards, I discovered that figure really only applies to barn doors and skyscrapers. Realistically, it would range fur reliably to 400, trees and rocks to about 900, and large "shiny" stuff to 1200-1300.

As my long-range skills improved, though, I needed something better. I’d read some reviews, here and there, and was very close to buying the Leica 1600B. My inner Scrooge got the best of me, and I bought the Elite 1600ARC at half the price.

I have not regretted it, for one minute. (Well, one, but more on that, later.) The 1600 is constantly challenging me to find things it won’t range. I have ranged small trees and outcroppings out to 1500 yards, and buildings to 1750. I have only been in the field once, with this model, but each fur-bearing critter I ranged gave it no trouble. IIRC, the longest was a steer at 650. I haven’t had an opportunity to range any fur further out, but hopefully I’ll be out again, this month. As far as repeatability goes, it is just plain good. I ranged several targets multiple times, at varying distances, and always got the same reading. No complaints, there.

Both Bushnell ARC LRFs have 3 target modes: Normal, Bulls-eye, and Brush. Normal allows one to scan with constant readouts off any ranged surfaces. Bulls-eye allows me to pinpoint smaller critters or targets. Basically, this mode uses the nearer return, and ignores the more distant targets. Brush mode helps range through branches or brush in the foreground, done by essentially performing the reverse of Bulls-eye mode. I have found that the modes work reasonably well, in their respective capacities.

They have 8 different drop groups, and variable sight-in distances, which allow them to offer "ball-park" hold overs, in inches of drop or in MOA. If shooting different calibers, it is quite easy to select a different group. Personally, I don’t find this feature as helpful as I thought I would, since I now use my iPhone for ballistic solutions, based on real world conditions (temp, humidity, pressure). This gives me superior drop estimations that the range finders just can’t deliver, but I don’t fault them. They work off the 8 most common loads, and I don’t shoot any of them.

Both the 1200 and 1600 also have built-in inclinometers, which display your shooting angle, in degrees, and the “shoot to” range. This is key, as I am able to use either when reading my drop chart or running numbers through the ballistic program. I have checked the “shoot to” ranges against line of sight vs. angle of calculations, and it has always been within a yard or two. This allows me to key fewer variables into the program, and also allows me to directly refer to my stock table, if conditions are compatible. In short, I know I can trust the yardage readouts.

The optics are decent on both, with adjustable eyepieces for those of us who wear glasses, but the 1600 has a 7x26 objective. This actually serves fairly well as a monocular. While it doesn’t replace a good pair of bino’s, it is still quite useable and could possibly save some bulk, if space/weight are at a premium.

The pros of the Legend 1200 ARC:

• Simple, On/Range button above eyepiece.
  
• Great ergonomics – fits well in the hand.
  
• LCD display is clear and easy to read during daylight hours.
  
• Compact, and easily slips into either a hip or breast jacket pocket. This is the principal reason I still own this LRF. At about 8 ounces, it's very convenient when out on coyote hunts.
  
• “Rain Guard” optics. These really work. They shed rain/drizzle, and don’t fog at all.
  
• Built in tripod mount.
  

The cons of the Legend 1200 ARC:

• Ranging can be a little slow, especially at longer distances.
  
• Ranging critters falls off pretty steadily beyond 400 yards.
  
• At ranges over 800, a pretty steady hand or tripod is needed, partly due to its size and weight.
  
• Twilight performance leaves a bit to be desired, because the display is non-illuminated.
  
• Setup button is on the side, which sometimes gets pressed without intent.
  

The pros of the Elite 1600 ARC:

• Good controls – single On/Range button on top, with the setup button out of the way, next to the eyepiece.
  
• Excellent ranging capabilities.
  
• Very steady, as it is heavier than the 1200 by 4.5 ounces.
  
• Fast ranging. Returns are up within a second.
  
• Good twilight performance, as the 1600 uses an LED display.
  
• “Rain Guard” optics.
  
• 100% waterproof. (But I don’t think it ranges underwater.)
  
• Built in tripod mount.
  

The cons of the Elite 1600 ARC:

• LED display can be difficult to read in full daylight. (My one real regret)
  
• Somewhat bulkier than the 1200, and weighs more, at 12 ounces.
  
• Ergonomics aren’t as good as the 1200, as the horizontal configuration pretty much lends itself to two hand use, as a pair of bino’s would.
  

Are there other, better range finders out there? Of course! But I guarantee you will pay more for them. My personal dream LRF is the Gunwerks G7 BR2, but at $1,600, I can’t overcome my inner Scrooge.

Wow! That is a superb and much appreciated review. Thank you!

We are, at present, mostly steel shooters working our way past 1,500 meters (our Grendel is fine until 1,200 where its goes trans-sonic under our conditions). I was holding out for the Vectronix 25CBT until I had a conversation with their tech support expert about its capabilities. In an $8k tool, I could not get past the Bluetooth incompatibility problems (not compatible with Kestrel AB, not compatible with FFS, not compatible with Mac OSX, not compatible with iOS) and Vectronix's estimation of "a year" (use the "rule of 3's," so translates as "3 years" real time) before seeing the desired compatibility was unconvincing, so I settled for the much less expensive Terrapin (no Bluetooth, no azimuth, no inclinometer, and the laser is 905nm), hence the ASLI solution.

So far, if we can hold it still enough on a tripod to pinpoint it, we can range it—but then we are not hunters... yet. We are tuna fishermen. :-)

[NugginFutz]

Have any of your guys played with Strelok+ or Pro? Granted, it is using a camera on a cell phone that is less than "precision" device but it seems like it would give a close enough guesstimation.

I have not, but I can certainly see the utility.

Below, is a screen shot from Ballistic, with my 123 AMax load selected.
Note the LOS readout near the bottom. The inclinometer of the phone or iPad is used to get the angle. I don't think they are particularly trustworthy, but it's an option.

[attachment=2748]

[MrFrankZ]

I wish Ballistic was available on Android... I use Shooter and the Strelok apps and they are functional but not as "pretty".
I don't know about the iPad, but after calibrating the gyroscope on my phone it is pretty accurate. I tested it several times versus a good ol' bubble level and it was usually with .75 deg. I've even used the bubble level app a couple of times, and the doors I installed don't scrape

I may tinker with my wife's iPad when I get home to see if it can be calibrated/tested. On that note, I am also going to test the range estimation feature in Strelok on a few known points behind my house that are between 45 and 800 yards away. I started following this thread because I am in the market for a RF, but if I can use something I already have...

[BjornF16]

The cons of the Elite 1600 ARC:

• LED display can be difficult to read in full daylight. (My one real regret)
  
• Somewhat bulkier than the 1200, and weighs more, at 12 ounces.
  
• Ergonomics aren’t as good as the 1200, as the horizontal configuration pretty much lends itself to two hand use, as a pair of bino’s would.
  

Are there other, better range finders out there? Of course! But I guarantee you will pay more for them. My personal dream LRF is the Gunwerks G7 BR2, but at $1,600, I can’t overcome my inner Scrooge.

I shelled out for the Leica 1600B, and while I cringed a little, I have not regretted it. I, too, covet the G7 (but can't rationalize the expense)

The Leica 1600B:

• Weighs only 8.1 oz
  
• Compact size (4.4 × 2.9 × 1.3 in.)
  
• Worked well in light/moderate snow conditions
  
• One hand use, easy to read (even in full daylight conditions)
  
• Has ballistic option if desired
  
• Gives Temp, Pressure, and LOS angle if desired (although I don't really consider the temp to be overly accurate if in direct sunlight for extended period of time)
  
• Water proof to 1m