30 arx

[VASCAR2]

After searching and trying to find out which mag is used with 30 ARX the best information I found was where one tester found a 10 round 7.62 X 39 magazine worked best with one of the similar 30 cal Grendel brass case wildcats. Another advantage of the 300 Blackout is it uses the STANG AR-15 mags.

Other than being 30 caliber I can't see any advantage in performance over the 6.5 Grendel.

[NugginFutz]

Same here - and I am not certain at all, that the ARX, in 30 cal, has any advantage, other than a wider selection of pills to choose from.

[MrFrankZ]

The best reason to get one is to have the bleeding-edge new cool tool. And I am 100% fine with that as long as I'm not paying for it, For now.

[XcountryRider]

I do want to build a 30 Cal AR but i'm holding out for one with decent performance. Maybe 2014 will be the year of the 30 Remington AR. Handloaders can get 2650fps from a 150gr Nosler BT. Lots of things need to happen to make that possible we shall see if they do.

[Klem]

Same here - and I am not certain at all, that 30 cal is any advantage, other than a wider selection of pills to choose from.

If the thread is morphing into opinions of the Blackout I'm going to jump in here.

I've had one since they first came out. The original 16" barrel, 1:8twist with carbine-length gas system. Have hunted with it and spent beaucoup $$$ on trying every projectile I can find. My thoughts...A very average caliber. Supersonic is too slow, and subsonic suffers from over-penetration.

1. Ammo weight is heavy! Supersonic rounds weigh twice as much as .223, and three times as much subsonic. Try humping that around wondering if the ammunition weighs as much as 7.62 why you are not carrying a 7.62.
2. Slow rounds means rainbow trajectory, which means shorter point-blank-ranges and less forgiving when judging distances than a .223.
3. Supersonic goes transonic quicker than a .223. Max effective range is shorter than .223 by about 20%.
4. 30cal projectiles available for the Blackout don't fly apart under 2,000fps. Slow velocities mean no temp-wound-cavity in flesh in the wake of the wound channel. No blood bruising that you see with .223. Time and again I see the animals being hunted stagger and remain alive for far too long after being shot. A round fired at about 2.3K fps quickly drops below 2K fps and then you are shooting handicapped.
5. The caliber is sold on its amazing penetration and extra energy than the .223. Not worth a cracker when it's in one side out the other. The marketing hype of penetrating '21 jugs of water' and then '3" of timber' is moot when the round enters and exits 12" of flesh like a laser beam, taking all that potential energy with it, with no temp-wound-cavity in its wake. If you haven't hit anything critical in the crush-trail you end up shaking your head at the irresponsibility of wounding an animal in flight.
6. Subsonic is the same. Laser beams through the target. Unless you hit the brain you're in for a long walk.
7. Suppressed subsonic is relatively loud compared to an 9mm MP5 SD, and even louder than a .22upper. There are only two dedicated subsonic hunting/flesh bullet manufacturers I am aware of; LeHigh and Outlaw State. These rounds are expensive. Main manufacturers of subsonic ammunition use stock 30cal match projectiles that are not designed for flesh. Great for paper if that's all you want the caliber for.

Subsonic Blackout leaves no temp-wound-cavity at all. So it's all up to shot placement and crush trail. You are carrying essentially an accurate .45 handgun (220gr @ 1,000fps). Max effective subsonic hunting range is about 150m with 100m being more like it. But, if you are not making use of the Blackout subsonic/suppressed then you have a pretty average gun compared to other AR calibres.

Here's a typical example of two shots fired subsonic using Outlaw State dedicated 30cal subsonic hunting projectiles. In one side out the other carrying all that 220gr of energy somewhere else. May as well have used match rounds. Or a .22LR... probably would have done more damage!

Entry holes; 70m and then a kill shot close-up.


Exit holes; No ballistic-tip damage, no gaping holes.


The caliber sounds impressive on paper but it is slow, and subsonic is a whole different ball-game when hunting flesh. Trying to tell this to aficionado's on the Blackout forum is like walking into a mosque wearing an 'Infidels Rule' T shirt. Most treat it like a religion and refuse to listen. If ammunition manufacturers made projies designed to work when slow then it would help but until then...don't give up your Grendels gentlemen.

[BjornF16]

If the thread is morphing into opinions of the Blackout I'm going to jump in here.

I've had one since they first came out. The original 16" barrel, 1:8twist with carbine-length gas system. Have hunted with it and spent beaucoup $$$ on trying every projectile I can find. My thoughts...A very average caliber. Supersonic is too slow, and subsonic suffers from over-penetration.

That's why I was asking about 30 ARX...I have a 10" Noveske 300 BLK barrel that I'm wondering would do better as a 30 ARX.

[Klem]

That's why I was asking about 30 ARX...I have a 10" Noveske 300 BLK barrel that I'm wondering would do better as a 30 ARX.

OK, understood.

Your Blackout would be a nice light-weight home defense type setup. Noveske have a stirling reputation for Blackout uppers and drop-in's. Not sure about longer ranges however, but you would know better than me.

I worry about going too short in a Blackout. Ordinarily that means lower velocities and a super-loud bark. However Blackout needs to be used subsonic to justify the choice and the higher muzzle pressures that come with a short barrel mean your subsonic suppression suffers.

As for supersonic, the Blackout is already pretty slow with a 16" barrel so we both know what 10" is.

If I had my time again I'd probably go a 12.5" 1:7 twist Noveske Blackout barrel with pistol length gas tube.

Yes, good thinking...I reckon your 10" ARX would work much better than a 10" Blackout. No good subsonic however, but a 10" Blackout is pretty loud anyway.

[NugginFutz]

If the thread is morphing into opinions of the Blackout I'm going to jump in here.

...

The caliber sounds impressive on paper but it is slow, and subsonic is a whole different ball-game when hunting flesh. Trying to tell this to aficionado's on the Blackout forum is like walking into a mosque wearing an 'Infidels Rule' T shirt. Most treat it like a religion and refuse to listen. If ammunition manufacturers made projies designed to work when slow then it would help but until then...don't give up your Grendels gentlemen.

You don't need to sell me, Klem. I've never felt the attraction to either the 300 Whisper or the Blackout.

I was wondering though, about the perceived advantage of a necked up 30 ARX over the Grendel. They would appear to have similar KE, but the 30's would likely have a lower BC and, consequently, a shorter effective range. I can only imagine the reason to go to the 30 ARX would be for a wider selection of bullets.

[XcountryRider]

You don't need to sell me, Klem. I've never felt the attraction to either the 300 Whisper or the Blackout.

I was wondering though, about the perceived advantage of a necked up 30 ARX over the Grendel. They would appear to have similar KE, but the 30's would likely have a lower BC and, consequently, a shorter effective range. I can only imagine the reason to go to the 30 ARX would be for a wider selection of bullets.

With a 125gr Nosler BT its going to have a 325yard Effective Hunting Range.

[NugginFutz]

With a 125gr Nosler BT its going to have a 325yard Effective Hunting Range.

Ok. I'm not sure how you come to that, but for the sake of argument, let's agree. Now how does that compare to, let's say, a 123 gr SST in 6.5 going at 2500? The better BC would seem to give the advantage to the 6.5. I just can't see any pronounced advantages to the 30 ARX, is all I'm saying.

[BjornF16]

OK, understood.

Your Blackout would be a nice light-weight home defense type setup. Noveske have a stirling reputation for Blackout uppers and drop-in's. Not sure about longer ranges however, but you would know better than me.

I worry about going too short in a Blackout. Ordinarily that means lower velocities and a super-loud bark. However Blackout needs to be used subsonic to justify the choice and the higher muzzle pressures that come with a short barrel mean your subsonic suppression suffers.

As for supersonic, the Blackout is already pretty slow with a 16" barrel so we both know what 10" is.

If I had my time again I'd probably go a 12.5" 1:7 twist Noveske Blackout barrel with pistol length gas tube.

Yes, good thinking...I reckon your 10" ARX would work much better than a 10" Blackout. No good subsonic however, but a 10" Blackout is pretty loud anyway.

I should have qualified a little more...my Noveske 10" barrel in sitting in an upper I put together, which is attached to one of my SBR lowers. It was my first SBR for home defense that I put together. I'm running 110 grain V-Max in them.

I bought it when the "cool" factor for BLK was still high. I'm not concerned about running sub-sonics through them.

I'll sit on my hands for now and see how the 30 ARX plays out. I imagine the 300 BLK could be re-chambered to 30 ARX???

For now, my primary house gun is a colt 11.5" suppressed.

The next question is: Grendel or 30 ARX?...both shooting 125 grains (approx), seems to me the winner would be higher SD...yes?

[XcountryRider]

Ok. I'm not sure how you come to that, but for the sake of argument, let's agree. Now how does that compare to, let's say, a 123 gr SST in 6.5 going at 2500? The better BC would seem to give the advantage to the 6.5. I just can't see any pronounced advantages to the 30 ARX, is all I'm saying.

Its going to be no comparison at all the Grendel of course easily wins by a 150yards at least. Here's a link to the 30 ARX Chart. Effective hunting range is determined by the point the round drops below 1800fps.

[NugginFutz]

Its going to be no comparison at all the Grendel of course easily wins by a 150yards at least. Here's a link to the 30 ARX Chart. Effective hunting range is determined by the point the round drops below 1800fps.

Gotcha. So, my point still remains, I suppose. Cool! Neat! He necked up a 6.5G to 30 cal. What's the upside?

[XcountryRider]

Gotcha. So, my point still remains, I suppose. Cool! Neat! He necked up a 6.5G to 30 cal. What's the upside?

Something different to play with i suppose for those that think they need a 30cal. For a 30cal to be viable in a AR-15 it needs more velocity to over come the lower BC. The only 30 caliber AR-15 30cal viable options are the 300 OSSM and the 30 Remington AR and so far they are very very hard to get.

[XcountryRider]

Gotcha. So, my point still remains, I suppose. Cool! Neat! He necked up a 6.5G to 30 cal. What's the upside?

A much better comparison is the Grendel VS the 30 Remington AR. Notice when a 150gr Nosler BT is loaded for the 30RAR if follows the same flight path as the factory 123gr SST.

[mongoosesnipe]

If the thread is morphing into opinions of the Blackout I'm going to jump in here.

I've had one since they first came out. The original 16" barrel, 1:8twist with carbine-length gas system. Have hunted with it and spent beaucoup $$$ on trying every projectile I can find. My thoughts...A very average caliber. Supersonic is too slow, and subsonic suffers from over-penetration.

1. Ammo weight is heavy! Supersonic rounds weigh twice as much as .223, and three times as much subsonic. Try humping that around wondering if the ammunition weighs as much as 7.62 why you are not carrying a 7.62.
2. Slow rounds means rainbow trajectory, which means shorter point-blank-ranges and less forgiving when judging distances than a .223.
3. Supersonic goes transonic quicker than a .223. Max effective range is shorter than .223 by about 20%.
4. 30cal projectiles available for the Blackout don't fly apart under 2,000fps. Slow velocities mean no temp-wound-cavity in flesh in the wake of the wound channel. No blood bruising that you see with .223. Time and again I see the animals being hunted stagger and remain alive for far too long after being shot. A round fired at about 2.3K fps quickly drops below 2K fps and then you are shooting handicapped.
5. The caliber is sold on its amazing penetration and extra energy than the .223. Not worth a cracker when it's in one side out the other. The marketing hype of penetrating '21 jugs of water' and then '3" of timber' is moot when the round enters and exits 12" of flesh like a laser beam, taking all that potential energy with it, with no temp-wound-cavity in its wake. If you haven't hit anything critical in the crush-trail you end up shaking your head at the irresponsibility of wounding an animal in flight.
6. Subsonic is the same. Laser beams through the target. Unless you hit the brain you're in for a long walk.
7. Suppressed subsonic is relatively loud compared to an 9mm MP5 SD, and even louder than a .22upper. There are only two dedicated subsonic hunting/flesh bullet manufacturers I am aware of; LeHigh and Outlaw State. These rounds are expensive. Main manufacturers of subsonic ammunition use stock 30cal match projectiles that are not designed for flesh. Great for paper if that's all you want the caliber for.

Subsonic Blackout leaves no temp-wound-cavity at all. So it's all up to shot placement and crush trail. You are carrying essentially an accurate .45 handgun (220gr @ 1,000fps). Max effective subsonic hunting range is about 150m with 100m being more like it. But, if you are not making use of the Blackout subsonic/suppressed then you have a pretty average gun compared to other AR calibres.

Here's a typical example of two shots fired subsonic using Outlaw State dedicated 30cal subsonic hunting projectiles. In one side out the other carrying all that 220gr of energy somewhere else. May as well have used match rounds. Or a .22LR... probably would have done more damage!

Entry holes; 70m and then a kill shot close-up.


Exit holes; No ballistic-tip damage, no gaping holes.


The caliber sounds impressive on paper but it is slow, and subsonic is a whole different ball-game when hunting flesh. Trying to tell this to aficionado's on the Blackout forum is like walking into a mosque wearing an 'Infidels Rule' T shirt. Most treat it like a religion and refuse to listen. If ammunition manufacturers made projies designed to work when slow then it would help but until then...don't give up your Grendels gentlemen.

you are completely correct in saying that the blackout is not a replacement for the 223, or grendel, or 6.8 or the 30-30 or the numerous other calibers it has been compared to for the purpose of marketing and selling guns

but you did hit on what the blackouts actual competition is

the caliber the 300 whisper/blackout is designed to compete against is the 9mm which it handily beats in every conceivable department except maybe noise but i would attribute that to the action noise of the AR15 combined with blow back from the short gas system and fast powders used from a single shot or bolt gun the or even a AR with the gas system turned off blackout can be very, very quiet

as for subsonic bullet expansion i have that covered on the cheap with 247 grain cast bullets
bullets were fired into wet newspaper at 1035 fps

[mongoosesnipe]

and a few more expanded bullet pics

[NightForce]

It's not hard to compare the Blackout against any other supersonic cartridge and have it fail. The whole point of Blackout is so the shooter can engage both supersonic and subsonic with the one gun, and do this by nothing more than changing mags. To be a fair comparison you need to consider the 30ARX' subsonic ability.

Subsonic is the Blackout's 'raison d'etre' and its proponents put up with a pretty average supersonic ability to have this subsonic as well, to 'have their cake and eat it too'.

Lets compare the two subsonic (Quickload)...

Using heavy rounds; 220gr commercial and 240gr cast lead from a 16" barrel;

Same caliber so they are both stable when subsonic. (Pass).

Does the 30ARX cycle the action of an AR? You need over 4,500lbs at the gas port. Quickload is showing over 5,000lbs gas pressure at the carbine length gas system mark (7"), so yes it does. Manufacturers are now trending towards pistol length gas ports for the Blakcout for even more reliability. (Pass).

Case capacity. 38gr of capacity to fill to safe limits. Using any normal powder to obtain high subsonic and not exceed it (1050fps) the loads are coming in at under 50% filled. Under 80% and you risk Secondary Explosion Effect and Flash-Over. It will happen eventually. (Fail).

Perhaps if you used Trail Boss however my program does not list that. Trail Boss will fill more of the excess capacity but it all boils down to having the round no more than 1050fps with at least 5,000lbs at the gas port to cycle then it will work.

Trail Boss does not cycle an AR with heavy 200+gr projectiles in a Blackout. This means you have to crank the handle each time, and what is the tactical benefit of that?! It is much quieter however when using the lightest 110gn 30cal projies when comparing it with heavier cycling 220gr; both going subsonic. The guys on the Blackout forum call this 'Hollywood quiet'.

So, can the 30ARX be made to shoot subsonic and reliably cycle the action without creating a dangerous situation with under-filled cases? Using normal powders, no. There is a small possibility with Trail Boss powder however so until someone tries using the 30ARX cartridge we cannot say for sure. Having tinkered around with Blackout/Trail Boss/Subsonic for a couple of years now I doubt it. Likely you will make it safe but unlikely it will have enough grunt to cycle the action.

This being the case the 30ARX beats the Blackout supersonic, but fails subsonic. Neither one 'wins'.

I'm always amazed at how many try to compare a cartridge to the 300 Blackout WITHOUT understanding the 300 Blackout was designed to shoot both supersonic and subsonic......

Great post!!

[MrFrankZ]

I'll sit on my hands for now and see how the 30 ARX plays out. I imagine the 300 BLK could be re-chambered to 30 ARX???

If this is the case, I will seriously consider making the switch on my 16" BLK.

[Klem]

Mongoose,

Interesting wetpack results. I do know there's someone on the Blackout forum who casts similar size weight lead and then drills a hollow-point into them using a jig. He is trying to emulate the handgun type projectiles with their overly large hollows - a reasonable idea given subsonic Blackout is pretty much the same dynamic.

I have been thinking that if someone could manufacture a round with a very thin serrated jacket full of powdered lead then that would dump pretty much all the energy on the target. A while back I have used powdered lead shotgun shells, and at other times 12-shot for knocking out hinges of doors during entry. This to minimize overpenetration into the stronghold.

I emailed Cor-Bon with the idea a while ago but did not receive a reply. Probably processed by someone who thought I was a nutter (not far from the truth). As you know Cor-Bon makes the 'Glaser Safety Slug'; an thin-jacketed round with a expander ball at the front and fine lead shot behind it. Designed for aircraft entry and Sky-Marshals. In a 220-230gr 30cal Blackout with either powder or fine shot that would work nicely dumping all the energy on the target with no over-penetration.