New Cartridge Developments and Implications for Dismounted Infantry Soldiers

[stanc]

I think the polymer mag and AR magwell limitations can be dealt with using a mag body that gets wider outside the magwell, while allowing for higher capacity as well.

Doesn't that typically result in a more complicated and costly mag?

A metal mag with the same approach could be another solution.

Perhaps SureFire should be talked to?

Either way, it would be nice to have mags with a body that allowed longer COAL.

The 6.8 guys like PRI mags for that reason. PRI mags have the two halves butt-welded together in front, whereas other designs overlap and spot weld. I wonder if PRI is too devoted to 6.8 SPC to consider making Grendel mags?

As far as brass and bullets go, the new Hornady brass seems to be going through some teething issues when it comes to fitting in certain chambers...

What R&D can 65grendel forum members do about that?

...and there is probably a little room to develop an optimized line of projectiles for the Grendel.

Yeah. IIRC, there are only two or three bullets that were designed specifically for 6.5 Grendel. Cartridge-specific 110gr TSX and 85gr TSX were made for 6.8 SPC; TSX's in those weights would also benefit 6.5 Grendel more than the 120gr TSX, which I think was created for higher-velocity rounds like .260 Remington.

[pinzgauer]

As far as brass and bullets go, the new Hornady brass seems to be going through some teething issues when it comes to fitting in certain chambers

Hmmm, only chambers from mfg's that chose to differ from the published standard. Which for a service rifle would be a non-issue. IE: super Tight chambers with minimal headspace are big problems for reliability. it would be addressed by now, except that the same mfg's then argue with folks who try to get it addressed. Looks like CSS is finally fixing barrels, but that whole saga is not a grendel cartridge issue, nor hornady brass. It's a mfg issue with a subset of mfg's.

[LRRPF52]

For the mags, I was thinking about going from the current width to a width more appropriate for the .444" base cartridge on some mags, but this could be determined quickly with a graph to see how much space would be needed, before going in the quad-stack direction. The quad-stack does offer the possibility of even more capacity than 30rds.

Magpul has also made a quad-stack mag, or at least applied for a patent for one.

[stanc]

I have the MGI tool-less Quick-Barrel Change system, so all I need are the barrel/bolt combos, and mags.

Did a little searching, and found this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WqacFmzP68

I thought, "Wow! That's exactly what I want!" I love the fast, easy takedown and assembly. Best of all, everything -- barrel, upper, lower -- fits into a briefcase for discreet transportation. Even though it's contrary to my dislike of the AR-15, I decided that was the way I wanted to go.

So, today I drove to the large indoor range that I knew (from a previous phone search) had a Kalifornia-legal, M4-clone made by Franklin Armory. Figured I'd buy a complete gun so as to have something to shoot while waiting for MGI upper receiver, extra barrels, and other parts.

Man, did I ever get a rude awakening. I discovered that I was unable to pull the bolt rearward even halfway, no matter how hard I pulled. Tried a Ruger Mini-30, with little more success. Even tried an old M1 carbine, and just barely managed to get the bolt all the way to the rear, but then couldn't hold it there long enough to press down the tiny lock button.

I hadn't realized just how much affect this darned MS has had. Always knew it was a problem, of course, but I always thought that I could still handle and shoot a rifle, just that it'd be a bit difficult. It turns out I was greatly underestimating the situation.

It looks like the only way I could get a round chambered in an AR-15 would be to place the butt on the floor and push down on the T-handle with my foot. But somehow I doubt that would go over very well with range safety officers and other shooters. LOL

There is an up side to this, however. Since I now know for certain that I won't be getting a Grendel AR, I can stop bugging John, Bill, and everybody else about the Wolf FMJ ammo.

[Variable]

Dang Stan, that really sucks to hear! Don't give up yet though, you can probably figure something out. It has taken you so long to finally get an AR, I'd hate for you to bail on it now!!!

Maybe something like a PRI "Gas buster" charging handle could give you more surface to grab at? They charge too much for them, but I've got at least five or six of them. They are my fave charging handles.

If all else fails, we'll make you a pulley system like they used to use on crossbows!!!

Don't stop pestering about the Wolf FMJ either, as you aren't the only one waiting!!!LOL

[RangerRick]

Don't give up hope Stan! One thing about the AR charging handle is that it is two sided. You can make a string to loop around your neck or hold in your teeth and then use your head to pull back on the handle. Or conversely, hold your head still and push the rifle away from you to extend the handle.

If your rifle functions well you only have to do it once during a shooting session.

There isn't much room below the charging handle for a string, but a wire loop might work, or some kind of forked "fingers" to go over the end of the handle.

Another good way is to shoot with a buddy who will do those little things for you when you need a hand.

That's tough for independent old SOB's like us, but you'd be surprised how many guys will be willing to help out.

You could also use it as a teaching opportunity. Find a young kid who wants to learn to shoot and be their coach. In return the kid can help out with stuff like that. We have to pass on the skills to the next generation.

Since I only have one arm, I have to learn to adapt and overcome all kinds of stuff like that. It's overwhelming at first, but after awhile it's second nature.

To load an automatic pistol, I have to stand sideways a the range and put the grip of the pistol on my hip to pull the slide back while keeping it pointed downrange.

About the only thing I haven't figured how to do is to get those damn headphones on one handed. I used ear plugs for years, but the noise canceling ear protectors are great at the range.

Trust me, everyone at the range will be willing to help if you need it. The hard part is asking.

Figure out a technique and practice at home. Then when you get to the range you won't get so frustrated.

With a bolt gun I can open the bolt same as an AR, by putting the butt on a hip from a table or against my chest prone.

If I can do it with one arm, you can do it with two weak arms!

Rick

[JASmith]

Stan,

I know that suggesting something like the TC single-shot is blasphemy on a site like this. On the other hand, the break-action is a lot easier to manipulate. Second, all of the ballistic testing you've suggested can be done with a single-shot firearm.

The added bonus is that the first cost is generally less than that of an AR-15. Even when you add the cost of 4 or 5 barrels, you'll likely have spent less than buying the first piston machine.

Cheers!
Joe

[LRRPF52]

Stan,

Another simple solution to your MS for operating the charge handle of any auto-loading rifle is to have a wristband with loop of 550 cord or webbing sewn to it. You could also incorporate this into gloves, so that you just hook the webbing onto the charge handle, and use your elbow, hip and shoulder mechanics to operate the mechanism, if the pain and reduced function in your hands and fingers is the main limitation for you.

You can also have a PRI military big latch installed on a standard AR15 charge handle, which is smooth and won't snag on the webbing or 550 loop. I'm putting together a strengthened charge handle configured exactly like that for a friend of mine, after I Cerakote the handle in Sniper Grey, which has a smooth Teflon-like finish if I mix the hardener ratio to Cerakote a certain way. Anyway, I think there are more options for you than you think.

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/de...uct_id=573

I would recommend a really lightweight AR with a quality pencil-weight barrel made by BCM or Daniel Defense. Using your support hand in the glove or wristband, you could basically charge the weapon in a hugging motion while turning the weapon over with your firing hand, placing the left side of the receiver up, keeping the muzzle downrange. Then hook the loop onto the charge handle latch, and "hug" the empty space between you and the rifle, applying force to the left with your right hand and arm(if you're right-handed), and force to the right with your left arm. The PRI Big Latch will allow the loop to slip off it once you hit the end of the travel of the mechanism, and the bolt carrier group and charge handle will slam forward, stripping a round off into the chamber.

Another option is to charge the AR15 like a pistol one-handed, off your belt or other snag spots that will help grab the charge handle latch. Gravity will work with you if you are standing, but RO's definitely will look at you cock-eyed if you don't explain your circumstances.

I also sew, and have been making gear since I was a kid, so let me know if I can help in that regard.

LRRPF52

[stanc]

Wow! That's a lot of creative thinking, guys. Many ideas that never occurred to me.

Chris, unfortunately, more surface to grab isn't the problem. I can hold onto the T-handle. I just don't have the physical strength to pull it all the way back. I've been doing weight training for about two months, but so far the increase in strength has been extremely little. In my youth, after two months of working out I made substantial improvements in strength and muscle mass. Now, even barely discernible gains are sooooo sloooow in coming.

Joe, I think you're right that a TC Contender carbine would be an excellent choice for doing terminal effects and barrier penetration tests. However, in light of recent experience, it's probably better that I not plan on doing any more such testing, at least for the near future.

Paul, the MS hasn't caused any pain. The problem is degraded muscle control and loss of strength. I'll check into the PRI Big Latch. Not sure if I fully understand your other ideas, though. For this dense ol' brain, pictures would've been better. :o

Rick, you want me to yank my teeth out??? Just kidding. You're quite right, I am accustomed to being independent. Although I used to have a couple of close friends and shooting buddies (they have since relocated to other parts of the state), I never relied upon them to go shooting. In fact, most of the time I went alone, and liked it that way, especially when doing terminal effects testing.

I appreciate everyone's support, and will seriously consider what you all have said. But, in addition to buying a gun, I need to find a source for an off-road walker. The parking lot at the range is composed of fine, talcum powder-like dirt, with large chunks of gravel. Rather difficult to move across with the narrow wheels on my walker, which was designed for concrete sidewalks.

Stan

[stanc]

Hey, all --

I have a question (to which I should know the answer, but somewhat embarassingly don't):

Is there a difference in buffer spring force between the telescoping stocks used on carbines, and the longer, fixed stocks on rifles?

It occurred to me that the carbine buffer spring might be much stronger, since it has to stop bolt carrier rearward travel in a shorter distance.

If there is a difference, anyone know what the spring force measures for both types?

[Tony Williams]

Stan, it's certainly true that the secondary recoil kick (presumably caused by the bolt group hitting the buffers) is much worse on the M4 than on the M16. You can see this in graphical form in slide #4 of this: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011smallarms/T...Lukman.pdf

[LR1955]

Paul, the MS hasn't caused any pain. The problem is degraded muscle control and loss of strength. I'll check into the PRI Big Latch. Not sure if I fully understand your other ideas, though. For this dense ol' brain, pictures would've been better. :o Stan

Stan:

What LRRPF52 is saying is to take a piece of parachute cord and make it into a loop. Put it around your wrist and loop one end around the charging handle. Then pull with the loop arm while pushing the forend or pistol grip with the other arm. No need for grip strength, biceps or triceps. You are using your upper body and shoulders.

LR55

[stanc]

Thanks, Gene. Not sure how feasible that is, since holding the rifle with only one hand, the gun will shake like it's in a magnitude 9.0 earthquake. :eek:

I can give it a try, though.

[LR1955]

Thanks, Gene. Not sure how feasible that is, since holding the rifle with only one hand, the gun will shake like it's in a magnitude 9.0 earthquake. :eek:

I can give it a try, though.

Stan:

So what if it shakes. You are only pulling the charging handle back far enough so it strips a cartridge. Even if you ride the bolt forward, you should have a forward assist that will let you put it into battery. Just ensure the barrel is pointed down range.

LR55

[stanc]

Using your support hand in the glove or wristband, you could basically charge the weapon in a hugging motion while turning the weapon over with your firing hand, placing the left side of the receiver up, keeping the muzzle downrange. Then hook the loop onto the charge handle latch, and "hug" the empty space between you and the rifle, applying force to the left with your right hand and arm(if you're right-handed), and force to the right with your left arm.

In the video below, is the movement at 0:18 what you mean by a "hugging" motion?

[video=youtube;PQeGEKWAqfU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQeGEKWAqfU[/video]

Any thoughts on the Brownells paratrooper charging handle?

[video=youtube;Zp094Aduk2c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp094Aduk2c[/video]

[LRRPF52]

Stan,

That's Pretty much the idea I was trying to convey. The method he uses to charge is along the lines of more modern manual of arms techniques used on AR's nowadays, with varying approaches as to how the support hand is oriented when using the latch. With extended latches, you can palm them like he did, or use your index and thumb to grab them, but in your case, the palm might work without needing the loop idea I mentioned, depending on your ability to maintain muscular tension in your wrist in combination with your upper body mechanics.

I would recommend the BCM/VLTOR Large Latch Gunfighter Charge Handle over these, since it doesn't have a split in the Charge Handle like a standard CH. Basically, people running high round-count courses using aggressive one-handed charging techniques have broken piles of standard Charge Handles with extended latches, because the extended latches have the tendency to torque down on the rear "T" section of the handle, causing the thin bottom section to snap off, giving you a nose-slamming reciprocating charge handle.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-GUNFI...%20556.htm

I've been using these for a while now, and they're great. They're also half the price of a PRI Gas Buster.

[stanc]

That's Pretty much the idea I was trying to convey. The method he uses to charge is along the lines of more modern manual of arms techniques used on AR's nowadays, with varying approaches as to how the support hand is oriented when using the latch. With extended latches, you can palm them like he did...in your case, the palm might work without needing the loop idea I mentioned, depending on your ability to maintain muscular tension in your wrist in combination with your upper body mechanics.

Practicing a slightly modified variation of the technique (while sitting here at the computer), it seems as if it might work for me if I hold the grip with my right hand and use left palm on the charging handle. Need to try it with a real gun, though.

A complication is that, although I'm right-handed, I'll have to shoot left-handed. So, when I try the movement with hand positions reversed, it doesn't work at all well. However, since it's unlikely I'll be doing any tactical shooting, I suppose that doesn't really matter. For leisurely shooting from a bench, if what it takes to get the bolt all the way to the rear is to hold the grip with my right hand, then switch hands in order to shoot, who cares if it isn't tactically efficient...

I would recommend the BCM/VLTOR Large Latch Gunfighter Charge Handle over these, since it doesn't have a split in the Charge Handle like a standard CH. Basically, people running high round-count courses using aggressive one-handed charging techniques have broken piles of standard Charge Handles with extended latches, because the extended latches have the tendency to torque down on the rear "T" section of the handle, causing the thin bottom section to snap off, giving you a nose-slamming reciprocating charge handle.

Ouch! I hadn't heard of that before. Thanks for that tidbit.

I'd probably never shoot enough for that to be a concern, but it's good to know, anyway.

[LRRPF52]

Why do you have to shoot left-handed?

[Variable]

Stan,

That's Pretty much the idea I was trying to convey. The method he uses to charge is along the lines of more modern manual of arms techniques used on AR's nowadays, with varying approaches as to how the support hand is oriented when using the latch. With extended latches, you can palm them like he did, or use your index and thumb to grab them, but in your case, the palm might work without needing the loop idea I mentioned, depending on your ability to maintain muscular tension in your wrist in combination with your upper body mechanics.

I would recommend the BCM/VLTOR Large Latch Gunfighter Charge Handle over these, since it doesn't have a split in the Charge Handle like a standard CH. Basically, people running high round-count courses using aggressive one-handed charging techniques have broken piles of standard Charge Handles with extended latches, because the extended latches have the tendency to torque down on the rear "T" section of the handle, causing the thin bottom section to snap off, giving you a nose-slamming reciprocating charge handle.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-GUNFI...%20556.htm

I've been using these for a while now, and they're great. They're also half the price of a PRI Gas Buster.

Thanks for the heads up! I hadn't seen those. I wish they would incorporate a gas groove too, but I guess there is always the RTV sealant mod for can usage.

That might work good for Stan. Personally I don't like latches that stick out very far (because they snag on my gear) but that does look pretty neat, and just might fit the bill for Stan.

[Variable]

Practicing a slightly modified variation of the technique (while sitting here at the computer), it seems as if it might work for me if I hold the grip with my right hand and use left palm on the charging handle. Need to try it with a real gun, though.

A complication is that, although I'm right-handed, I'll have to shoot left-handed. So, when I try the movement with hand positions reversed, it doesn't work at all well. However, since it's unlikely I'll be doing any tactical shooting, I suppose that doesn't really matter. For leisurely shooting from a bench, if what it takes to get the bolt all the way to the rear is to hold the grip with my right hand, then switch hands in order to shoot, who cares if it isn't tactically efficient...

Ouch! I hadn't heard of that before. Thanks for that tidbit.

I'd probably never shoot enough for that to be a concern, but it's good to know, anyway.

Hopefully one of these techniques will work, but if not, I have thought of another somewhat Rube Goldbergesque approach that probably would....


If you had a charging handle with some form of "eyelet" installed in the rear, you could use a release like is used on a compound bow to charge the weapon.

With the bow release attached to your chest, you would:

1.) clip onto the charging handle

2.) (while facing downrange) snag the carbine on a surface such as a shooting bench or verticle pole/surface and lean back. Your body weight would pull the charging handle rearward with little effort on you part.

3.) activate the bow release to let the charging handle fly forward.

If your AR had a bipod or forward "K" grip on the bottom, it would be easy to snag it on any convenient surface to do this....

It would probably be preferrable to find something that didn't require a bow release to be attached to your chest to charge your weapon, but if all else failed, it should work pretty easy I'd guess????