me i was taught to but the but stock just outside of my sternum .So really in between my sternum and clavicle.i shoot left handed nothing to do with topic. but reason:it keeps you centered to the target and a natural aiming posture.
Now my pistol i center in my body completely (also left handed).reason is the same as above...im a rite handed person, left eye dominate ...
This is just they way i was taught ,and it works for me.im not saying this is the right way to shoot, How do you all shoot ?
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ummm, collar bone and clavicle are the same thing.
I position the butt stock in the cup inside of the deltoid and on the upper, outer chest.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
bwaites Wrote:ummm, collar bone and clavicle are the same thing.
I position the butt stock in the cup inside of the deltoid and on the upper, outer chest.
lol i edited i didnt type what i was meaning.
i guess its more between my nipple and sternum i should say
The way you shoot is how i used to
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jwilson1985 Wrote:me i was taught to but the but stock just outside of my sternum .So really in between my sternum and clavicle.i shoot left handed nothing to do with topic. but reason:it keeps you centered to the target and a natural aiming posture.
Now my pistol i center in my body completely (also left handed).reason is the same as above...im a rite handed person, left eye dominate ...
This is just they way i was taught ,and it works for me.im not saying this is the right way to shoot, How do you all shoot ?
JW:
I put the stock in a location where I can easily bring the sights to my eyes. This means in most cases a different location of the stock based on position and eye relief.
Although I don't know of any 'right' way to shoot, I do believe that marksmanship performance has a whole lot to do with maintaining balance and being able to see clearly.
So, by locating the stock where the sights can be easily brought to the eyes as opposed to locating the stock somewhere and then forcing the head and eyes down to the sights, a person establishes a set of conditions (balance and vision) where he has the potential for good marksmanship performance.
Understand that there is always some compromise due to the ergonomic design of the entire firearm. Also, guys will compromise balance and or vision in order to gain something else that they believe is more important than accuracy. Speed / recoil control are normally two factors that may outweigh perfect balance and perfect vision.
So - a 'right' way to hold a rifle, pistol, etc. probably doesn't exist. A way to hold them that gives the shooter something consistent and confident enough for him to trust his shooting ability and that he will succeed is probably a better way to put it.
LR1955
i agree , whatever works best for the shooter and the situation
The proper placement I was always taught in the military was the pocket that forms when you hold the rifle up to your shoulder. The pocket is formed at the top or your armpit, with your bicept touching one side and your pectoral muscle touching the other side. This position keeps the butt of the rifle in place. Moving the butt any farther onto the pectoral muscle allows for the rifle to slide when firing (moving into the pocket I mentioned). Of course, there are many other tactical ways to modify your weapon placement. But, for the purposes of basic marksmanship, this is the preferred position.
What is most important is repeatability. Which ever way you choose to shot, as long as you can place the rifle consistantly in the same place, then you can build muscle memory and it will make your shooting more predictable.
Now, having said all that. I have a friend in a wheelchair that shoots at the range. He uses a metal rest for the stock to rest on and he pulls the rifle pretty much into the center of his chest and shoots one handed. He is an exceptional shot. So ..... whatever works is what you should do.
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Not always the case depending on the situation but I default to the shoulder pocket for the reasons Mutt said. I like quick follow up shots- that's what semi's are for. 
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Guys:
So, what is more important. Placing the stock in the pocket of the shoulder or being able to easily see the sights and maintain your balance while shooting?
LR1955
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I never really had any issue feeling balanced with the stock in the pocket under normal situations.
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txgunner00 Wrote:I never really had any issue feeling balanced with the stock in the pocket under normal situations.
TG:
OK but it didn't answer the question. What is more important? Location of the stock in the shoulder pocket or being able to easily see the sights and maintain your balance while shooting?
I ask this because I have witnessed this conflict countless times and figure that others here will experience it too. So they might as well get differing thoughts when they sort it out on their own.
LR1955
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Just sharing what works for me most of time. I agree 100% with your earlier post. No single rifle position works in all situations for all individuals but I've had "instructors" try to train me that way. Mostly in the Marine Corps where the book is infallible.
I find that the most important thing in both well-supported prone or bench positions, as well as standing or runnin' and gunnin' is the ability to maintain a solid sight picture as the gun recoils, and to recover on that sight picture the fastest if we are talking about any chance of a good follow-up shot within a short amount of time. This is especially true with the AR, which seems to like getting muscled, without muscling off target...not easy to do.
I'm really muscling the gun hard to get it to hold within a 6" plate at 7yds in this example:
[video=youtube;vK2Y1hiUAPQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK2Y1hiUAPQ[/video]
The positioning of my torso leaning forward is more important than where the butt is actually placed, and I tend to push that butt placement a little closer to the center of my chest from the traditional pectoral-bicep junction in a CQM stance, since getting the gun to move to my head is more important than moving my head to the gun. Try walking around with your head canted to the side, especially in a room with rapid muzzle blasts discharging, and you will look like a drunk.
lr1955 it would be seeing the sites and proper balance. if you can not see correctly or properly get the shot off.the target means nothing if you can hit it
lrrpf this is how i shoot.but i would be doing cqc 3gun ,but i have found that it works for (ME) in long range as well .when im not shooting prone or from a rest but i still seam to put the butt closer to the center of my chest. cause it works for me
For CQM, I don't put it noticeably closer to the center of chest from another person's perspective, but just a little more on the lateral face of my pec. For shooting from the bench, I am still chasing that game with the AR of muscling it as exactly rearwards as possible, while trying not to let that gross muscle input throw the shot. The long lock time of the AR is its biggest enemy in the accuracy department, even though the rest of the gun is more inherently accurate due to it being a tube, basically. Light hammers help a little with this.
The OP basically asked how we shoot. I took the OP's original question to mean "basic marksmanship". There are so many different position, variables and techiniques, many of which are situation driven. It's also driven by the type of weapon you are using. Each weapon has a different form and function. But, the basics still apply to each one. If you can't repeat the basics, then you can't shoot the same each different time you shoot.
We could all agree that shooting while running and wearing a gas mask while wearing all your battle rattle is much different than shooting wearing blue jeans and a hoody at a shooting bench at the local range (which is how alot of the people on these forums shoot). In combat, I couldn't even put the butt where I normally would because my ballistic vest and gear wouldn't allow it.
If a person that has never shot before came to me and asked me how they should hold and shoot their rifle. I would teach them the basic stance with the rifle butt in the pocket I spoke of earlier (although there is much more to it than just that). I would hope to teach them the importance of repeatability and muscle memory. Once they've mastered the basics, then maybe I would teach them some of the more advance techniques.
Try as it may, proper positioning is something that you are going to need, and lots of actually. It will be very tough to go with something that is very hard to keep up with and lose yourself halfway in the battle for position. That is just how you should make things to be, just so everything will be much clearer from here hence. Just make sure that you are going to position well so you could avoid problems and aches.
Ballance and relaxed muscles are key to optimum accuracy. The reason match rifles outperform service rifles is simply because the rifle can be adjusted to the shooters natural point of aim with no muscle tension. Ideally you start with no sights adjusting the stock fit so that you can hit a 6" circle at 200 yards without sights, then insert the sights between your eye and the target. I've done this and it is very effective.
Bob
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Interesting trick. I'll have to remember that.
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stokesrj Wrote:Ballance and relaxed muscles are key to optimum accuracy. The reason match rifles outperform service rifles is simply because the rifle can be adjusted to the shooters natural point of aim with no muscle tension. Ideally you start with no sights adjusting the stock fit so that you can hit a 6" circle at 200 yards without sights, then insert the sights between your eye and the target. I've done this and it is very effective.
Bob
Bob:
What match rifle are you using that balances off hand? Every one I have owned or fired has always been front heavy and hardest to balance off hand compared to seated or prone. This includes numerous barrels on a T2K, four or five different M-70 bolt rifles, and three AR match rifles. All have been very front heavy compared to a service rifle. In fact, I would bet most who shoot match rifle would rather shoot a service rifle off hand just because of the difficulty in balance.
As for shooting repeated 10's at 200 without sights......... That one I will only believe if I personally witness it.
However, if others are thinking about the concept of adjusting the rifle to fit you before putting on the sights, it is sound. The reason is because if you plop the sights on the rifle first, you will focus your position around the location of the sights and not based on how your body wants to hold the rifle. Of course this is done with a match rifle where the stock adjusts for length of pull, cant and cast. And, on some match rifles you can also adjust cant the forend in order to better fit your non firing hand.
So, we remove the sights and adjust the rifle to fit us. Then we put on the sights based on our natural head position.
That said, here is another thing that most find blasphemous. For rapid fires -- seated and prone -- my stock adjustments are based on efficiency and ease of bolt manipulation first. I can always adjust the rear sight for sight relief but if your bolt manipulation is off, just a fraction of an inch because of a poor position, you have increased your problems with rapid fires. This was particularly true when we were shooting the 06 and .308 due to their recoil. With the AR gas gun match rifles, I adjust it based on comfort of the firing hand in terms of its ability to confidently pull the pistol grip back into my shoulder. The trigger finger takes care of itself and it doesn't matter what part of the finger pulls the trigger.
Also note, if you are new at using a match rifle, it will take you a couple of years of work before your rifle adjustments will hold, day in and day out. And remember that what Stokes and I are talking about are based on High Power where your firing lines are flat and there is very little angle up or down to the targets. Once you cross a certain point by having to shoot at a target higher or lower than you, these adjustmsnts no longer work and you have to adjust all over again. Goes back to the purpose of a shooting position which is to align the sights with the eyes and point the barrel at the target.
LR1955
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