Muscle Memory 1

[LR1955]

A number of people have used the term 'muscle memory' when commenting on marksmanship in general. It seems that the statement 'you have to develop muscle memory' is used today almost as much as 'your breathing is wrong', as reason for poor marksmanship performance.

I have used various scientific search engines to find documented and quantified research involving 'muscle memory' and came up with nothing.

So, for the first is what will probably be a couple of individual threads, let me ask the following question.

What is 'muscle memory' and how does your muscle know if it is memorizing the right thing?

LR1955

[Waveman]

Muscle Memory refers to training your body, through repetition, to perform specific tasks in the specified way with out conscious effort. Your muscles will "memorize" what ever movement you repeat irregardless if the movement is correct or not.

[rkflorey]

I read a paper that stated "It is not the muscles that get "memory". You set neural pathways to perform certain functions when you do them repeatedly. It allows you to do certain tasks without concious thought to each part of series of actions. You can train your muscles to perform some of those tasks better (repitition so fatigue is less of a problem) but the brain is the controller and not truly a muscle. I will try to find the reference material. K

[Alex4922]

I believe that muscle memory, in shooting, is to a large extent the unconscious learning of natural point of aim. Learning to find the postion in which you can fire the shot without working against your own muscular tension. Check out the link and see if it's helpful.

http://the-rifleman.blogspot.com/2008/03...-npoa.html
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Alex

[appleseed-kdc]

Its a general term that with sufficient repitition, it will become automatic ie. move from conscious to sub-sconscious, like anything in life from walking, to running, to driving a car, catching a ball etc.

And yes, it doesn't matter if it is correct (or good) or bad form.

[LRRPF52]

Human understanding of nerve and muscle tissue is extremely limited, to the point where only certain theories as to how they function are accepted in medical universities. The two dominant theories are:

Muscles: Sliding filament theory, which basically explains that the elongated muscle fibers contract because of chemical interactions between them, mainly ATP (adenosine triphosphate). I personally don't buy it, but sliding filament theory is what is taught in medical school, and arguing with the academia without substantive and voluminous peer-reviewed studies is pointless right now.

Nerves: Electro-chemical connector theory, which attempts to explain highly complex signal interface with chemical facilitators. The University of Michigan has done some ground-breaking research in electro-physiology, using high-resolution imaging of electroencephalography, which indicated that at least 92% of the energy transmitted between the synapses in the brain is NOT measurable or even within the electromagnetic spectrum. It baffled the researchers, and would seriously undermine electrochemical connector theory, which is the current foundation for all prescription psychotropic medications.

As such, I can't get a hold of the research from the U of Michigan. I read the article about it in a Scientific American overseas off the magazine rack, and haven't seen it since, although you will find that U of M has a very active EEG and brain research program.

I also don't buy that chemicals are the main explanation for brain activity, and never have. While they are clearly important facilitators of electrophysiology, I view them in comparison to how important alkaline batteries are for current in a DC system, while the focus in on the volts, not the acid. The human vascular system is more plasmatic than liquid, with a definite energy pulsation that can be clearly seen or listened to with modern diagnostic instrumentation. The blood facilitates not only nutrient and waste transfer, but electrical activity for the whole organism in conjunction with the nervous system, endocrine system, musculo-skeletal system, etc.

[bwaites]

As seen from the comments above, there is a wide variance in what is frequently called "muscle memory".

I tend to believe it is a combination of multiple factors, all grouped into what we call "memory", but which in reality is a complex interaction of muscle response to acquired or instinctual triggers, originating in the brain, or perhaps the spinal column, (depending on the action).

Certain things require no conscious input, IE. we can run without thinking about it, jump without thought when a puddle appears without consciously deciding to do so.

Little about firing a rifle is instinctual, it is learned and acquired, but the actual repeat performance can be drilled so frequently that we can become almost instinctual about performing it.

"Muscle memory" has little to do with the actual process. We can drill the behavior until it becomes as natural as a backhand is to Rafael Nadal, but like the backhand, it is NOT "muscle memory", but a complex and precise neuromuscular response initiated by a learned process in our brain.

[Mutt]

LR,

Do you naturally place you hand and finger in the same place every time you draw a pistol from the holster?? Do you always place your rifle, hands, fingers and such in the same place every time you shoulder your weapon without thinking about it? Do you roll out of bed the same way and put your pants on the same way every day? Do you press the trigger instead of jerking it or squeezing your whole hand, but you do this automatically without thinking about it? Musicians must do the same thing. They must perform the same physical task every time without thought. They must see a note and have thier hands respond the the appropriate keys. It becomes automatic ...... call it what you will muscle memory is the term that is commonly used by almost all military trainers and law enforcement instructors. What I've been taught is that it takes a minimum of 7,000 repetitions to even begin to develope what is called "Muscle Memory".

The idea that you will perform a function automatically in a given situation (preferrably a high stress situation) by continual practicing the same physical act is what the term implies. It's just easier to say muscle memory ...... than all of that.

Do the muscles actually remember? I doubt it. I'm no neuro surgeon, so I have no real idea or proof of how it works. But, I personally believe that it is a electrical circuit that is developed inside the brain that fires each time you perform a task. But, that circuit isn't developed or engrained until you have performed that same task thousands of times. But, that my own personal theory. Honestly, I don't really care how it happens. I just know that it does.

Why do you think the military makes you do the same mundaine things over and over again.

I think waveman and rkflorey have the right idea. But ....... that's just my opinion.


ETA: I looked it up ............ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

[LR1955]

LR,

Do you naturally place you hand and finger in the same place every time you draw a pistol from the holster?? Do you always place your rifle, hands, fingers and such in the same place every time you shoulder your weapon without thinking about it? Do you roll out of bed the same way and put your pants on the same way every day? Do you press the trigger instead of jerking it or squeezing your whole hand, but you do this automatically without thinking about it? Musicians must do the same thing. They must perform the same physical task every time without thought. They must see a note and have thier hands respond the the appropriate keys. It becomes automatic ...... call it what you will muscle memory is the term that is commonly used by almost all military trainers and law enforcement instructors. What I've been taught is that it takes a minimum of 7,000 repetitions to even begin to develope what is called "Muscle Memory".

The idea that you will perform a function automatically in a given situation (preferrably a high stress situation) by continual practicing the same physical act is what the term implies. It's just easier to say muscle memory ...... than all of that.

Do the muscles actually remember? I doubt it. I'm no neuro surgeon, so I have no real idea or proof of how it works. But, I personally believe that it is a electrical circuit that is developed inside the brain that fires each time you perform a task. But, that circuit isn't developed or engrained until you have performed that same task thousands of times. But, that my own personal theory. Honestly, I don't really care how it happens. I just know that it does.

Why do you think the military makes you do the same mundaine things over and over again.

I think waveman and rkflorey have the right idea. But ....... that's just my opinion.


ETA: I looked it up ............ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

Mutt:

Why 7000 repetitions?

LR1955

[LR1955]

I believe that muscle memory, in shooting, is to a large extent the unconscious learning of natural point of aim. Learning to find the postion in which you can fire the shot without working against your own muscular tension. Check out the link and see if it's helpful.

http://the-rifleman.blogspot.com/2008/03...-npoa.html
\
Alex

Alex:

If someone isn't inducing muscular tension, how can they hold up a rifle or anything else? When you get into an off hand position or even the basic CQC stance, you are using isometric tension to stabilize the rifle or pistol given a two hand hold.

I understand what you are saying but is it what really happens?

LR55

[LR1955]

Its a general term that with sufficient repitition, it will become automatic ie. move from conscious to sub-sconscious, like anything in life from walking, to running, to driving a car, catching a ball etc.

And yes, it doesn't matter if it is correct (or good) or bad form.

AK:

Here is something that I wonder about when someone talks about driving a car as being done by the subconscious. If so, how come a person is exhausted after a long drive?

LR55

[LRRPF52]

I actually don't subscribe to the "automated response" school of thought. I believe in staying in the moment, so whenever I perform tasks that are usually considered mundane or ones I have done all my life, I am trying to do them better each time..whether it be rolling out of bed, indexing my hand on my concealed pistol, or doing sweep arpeggios across 4 octaves on a 7-string guitar. Like martial arts, staying in the moment and being open to what comes next as a series of quick chess moves available to you is how I look at gross and fine motor skills that comprise complex tasks.

If I am performing them thoughtlessly, I'm usually not reaching my goals, and missing something. I find this to be common when a shot group opens up to .75 or .8 MOA at the range, when I know the system will shoot under 1/2 MOA. If you're exactly focused at the moment of truth when the shot breaks, and the crosshairs are dead-on, the group tightens. It requires a lot of mental focus that takes more energy than many other common tasks, because of the precision required, while holding the sight picture centered as perfectly as possible.

[jwilson1985]

idk .i know when i was boxing they made us do basics all the time.the 1,2,3(left,rite,left hook) because there is a time in the ring where you are so tired and beat up that ur body would fall back to what was drilled in,even when you had no idea what you were doing.

still wore out,but did work but thats a different situation then cover,fire and weapon manipulation

[LRRPF52]

The most dangerous thing in a fight is a thinking man, even when he's somewhat fatigued, where a certain mental toughness remains. This is one of the reasons why selection processes for more elite military units incorporate lots of sleep deprivation over weeks, not just a few days. Most people can't continue to function, and performance of basic tasks deteriorates, while the mentally tough drive on and thrive in these conditions, still able to perform higher levels of physical exertion, decision-making, while avoiding injury. Staying in the moment is your friend.

[Alex4922]

Boy, this is some deep s**t ! I want to have some time to re read this thread. LR--- the idea behind NPOA is that even if you do use isometric muscle tension while taking the shot that tension is balanced. You are not fighting against poor body position. In hindsight NPOA probably has little to do with muscle memory.

Later A

[appleseed-kdc]

AK:

Here is something that I wonder about when someone talks about driving a car as being done by the subconscious. If so, how come a person is exhausted after a long drive?

LR55

Two separate issues. I'm sure you remember how awkward and loose control you had when first started driving. Drifting, always correcting, were totally focused and didn't want any other distractions.
Once it became subconscious/automated, then driving one handed, eating, listening relaxed to the radio, yada...yada.

You get tired because it isn't the act of driving per se (keeping the vehicle in the lane). Its the other cars, pedestrians, trees etc. that your eyes are always tracking, and your brain is processing, as you drive. That is a lot of very fast visual information to process. Something the brain isn't really designed for, but can still handle. In the old days, we didn't travel very fast.

YMMV.

The point I was making in my previous post was that you train/practice until the action moves from conscious to unconscious memory. BUT...if you have bad form/technique, that is what you will get. It is a lot harder to unlearn/replace once learned.

You still have to think about the shot consciously, range, size, movement, lead, bullet drop. But the act of holding/supporting the rifle, using your support and trigger elbows, sling position and tension, trigger finger position and squeeze, respiratory pause, can be automated ie sub-conscious.

The music one was good but also think of basics like walking and speech.

[LRRPF52]

If we're driving subconsciously, we and the rest of society are in serious trouble. I am more focused when driving than most other tasks during the day...

Front close sweep, front far sweep, rear view mirror, left side view, right side view, do I need to check blinds...repeat...intersection approaching DANGER AREA...check left then right for red light runners and pedestrians..blow through it faster than normal speed...slow down a bit..front close sweep, front far...

Yeah, I'm paranoid...helps keep you on the edge of awareness where you need to be. I also pay close attention to exactly what I'm ding while driving, steering wheel manipulation, throttle response and lag time, while thinking through every possible worst-case scenario that could happen in that moment.

My thoughts while driving would terrify everyone if they could see what I see...could make a great Final Destination movie.

[txgunner00]

Deep thoughts man....

I'm with LRRPF52. Our minds can make our bodies go way beyond what is commonly thought to be our physical limit. Mental acuity and situational awareness should be given much more emphasis in marksmanship training. Most people can adapt and make better decisions in the heat of the moment if they can figure out how to allow it to happen. I think we hear so many cliche phrases such as muscle memory from "instructors" because it's much easier communicate in terms of physical mechanics than mental temperament.

[appleseed-kdc]

Makes a mental note NOT to post anything that requires reading, comprehension and critical thinking skills beyond a Two level, Black and White understanding.

Message ends...OUT.

NOTE: Last post on this thread.

If we're driving subconsciously, we and the rest of society are in serious trouble. I am more focused when driving than most other tasks during the day...

Front close sweep, front far sweep, rear view mirror, left side view, right side view, do I need to check blinds...repeat...intersection approaching DANGER AREA...check left then right for red light runners and pedestrians..blow through it faster than normal speed...slow down a bit..front close sweep, front far...

Yeah, I'm paranoid...helps keep you on the edge of awareness where you need to be. I also pay close attention to exactly what I'm ding while driving, steering wheel manipulation, throttle response and lag time, while thinking through every possible worst-case scenario that could happen in that moment.

My thoughts while driving would terrify everyone if they could see what I see...could make a great Final Destination movie.

[LR1955]

Boy, this is some deep s**t ! I want to have some time to re read this thread. LR--- the idea behind NPOA is that even if you do use isometric muscle tension while taking the shot that tension is balanced. You are not fighting against poor body position. In hindsight NPOA probably has little to do with muscle memory.

Later A

ALEX:

Actually, I think NPA exemplifies the concept and yes, the isometric tension balances and thus stabilizes.

Now I got to get this thread focused again.

LR1955