Muscle Memory II -- Position

[LR1955]

From MMI folks differ in their definition of muscle memory but one thing in common is that when people discuss muscle memory, they mean position development.

I contend that from position development comes the neurological strengthening that allows someone to attain a confident position under any condition. The more you do some physical action, the more efficient the brain and nervous system become in commanding the body to do that action. More efficiency means faster as well as precise.

An observation is that few if anyone has mentioned the visual aspect of marksmanship and the development of a conditional response or reflex of trigger finger when the brain registers a good enough sight picture. I would think that to a good degree the speed of this action is more important than trying to train the body to be highly precise in holding a rifle up.

Lets say you were to coach someone in marksmanship where the individual was not allowed to use artificial support such as a bench rest or bipod.

Aside from the technical stuff, would you start by training them to identify a perfect sight picture with a fast and smooth trigger pull or would you focus your attention more on the physical actions needed to attain a solid physical position?


LR1955

[rkflorey]

I would focus on the physical actions to get a good position. If you try to shoot as fast as you get a good sight picture you are in a losing race and will disturb that good sight picture and pull the shot. K

[LR1955]

I would focus on the physical actions to get a good position. If you try to shoot as fast as you get a good sight picture you are in a losing race and will disturb that good sight picture and pull the shot. K

RK:

The neurological strengthening makes for efficiency which leads to speed. Your MMI post on muscle memory is a pretty good way of describing this. Being fast on the trigger will come naturally as the individual becomes more confident that what he is seeing in terms of sight picture tells him that his position is good enough.

As for going too fast on the trigger with new shooters? I don't think that is too common. Most of them go too slow, allowing them time to second guess their sight picture and thus jerk the trigger. Normally a trainer or coach has to speed them up in order to get some consistency from them.

Your opinions?

LR1955

[fanofflyn]

I am a neurosurgeon by trade, and there is a story about Harvey Cushing, the father of modern neurosurgery, having one of his residents come over to the house while the staff watched him play the piano. They determined that there was not enough time to consciously process the thought of pressing the keys with timing and the right order. When learning the piano, you learn good posture and position, and then by repetition are able to do the motor actions to reproduce the music that you hear as you do it, and it occurs in subconscious circuits that are much shorter and do not require conscious processing. Only by much practice and subconscious learning can this occur. I see no reason to expect a difference in learning to place a shot into a sight picture. Once we learn the proper positions and mechanics of discharging the weapon under control, we begin the process of repetition, so the subconscious circuits can then learn to place the shot into the point of impact visualized, much faster than we can think of the individual processes required to do so. If we start of with poor mechanics, it will be harder to maintain the control to be as accurate.

Of course, "muscle memory" is a misnomer. The muscles remember nothing (unless that is what one has between his ears). But the patterns of position sense and control can be learned at a level no longer requiring complex conscious input, which is just another way of saying exactly what LR1955 said.

I vote for initiating proper mechanics, balance, and technique, then working through repetition to gain speed with subconscious learning.

[Alex4922]

Agree, when proper body position is achieved you have NPOA nailed. Speed is easier because the weapon comes down from recoil into...the natural point of aim. In Appleseed shooters are taught the riflemans cadence. Shots are fired every two seconds using npoa, it prevents overthinking the shot thus building accurate speed. Admitted, in fast moving combat precision is often impossible. The Appleseed training is most valuable to those who would use a battle rifle to neutralize the enemies carbine armed troops beyond their effective range. Easy with our Grendels.

Alex

[LR1955]

FoF / Alex:

Yes, but it is the visual system that sees what is perceived as 'good enough' and starts the process of firing the shot.

So, would you start by training them to identify a perfect sight picture with a fast and smooth trigger pull or would you focus your attention more on the physical actions needed to attain a solid physical position?

Understand the next step is expenditure of a huge amount of time and material to actually develop that position. This effort and resource expenditure must have a very clear purpose.

LR1955

[rkflorey]

I would start with the physical actions to get a solid position. When training new rifle shooters I saw those that got into a solid position quickly, shot better and more confidently. I asked them and the response was pretty consistant. They felt that they had more time (relative) to take the shot. Those that struggled to get into position felt that they were taking to long and rushed the shot.
Taking more time in a training cycle to practice the basics paid dividends when it came to live fire and qualifications. Once the basics are learned shooters appear more confident shooting from unsupported or unusual positions. K

[Alex4922]

Once you have learned to find the NPOA and used it for a time you find yourself getting into it as you achieve target detection without conscious thought. You will have to adjust a bit as time allows.

As to training time, Appleseed can regularly take novice shooters and have them shooting near 4 moa on reduced size targets to a simulated 500 yds in two days. This is from field positions with mag changes and strict time limits.

Sorry, I get kinda carried away talkin about those guys. Alex

[Mutt]

I agree with rkflorey.

Yes, I believe that trigger pull and sight picture is very very important. But, I think it's putting the cart before the horse.

I believe that you won't get too far with trigger pull and a good sight picture alone if you can't first put buttstock to shoulder, hand to grip, cheeck to stock, support arm supporting, finger placement on trigger. And, be able to opperate the bolt release, safety and mag release without looking and/or even thinking aobut it. Bringing the rifle to your head and not head to rifle. Use dominant eye. And yes ..... breath properly. Once you learn to do these functions repeatably and properly, then a person is able to concentrate on sight picture and trigger pull. Which when everything is put into play .... together .... it builds a better shooter.

You can actually learn the basics and practice them without ever firing a shot. I still practice drawing, changing mags etc (but not nearly as much as I used too)..... without firing. It allows a person to teach themselves important concepts without having to expend ammo, targets, etc. It is important to have someone there that can coach them too. I would teach the basics, then sight picture and trigger pull, then live fire.

That's just my opinion though.

[LR1955]

Guys:

This is turning into a damn good professional discussion. Hopefully others on the forum can pick up some good things.

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a second.

How does the shooter develop position without first being totally comfortable that he knows what a good sight picture looks like? Isn't the end state of a position attaining a consistent sight picture?

LR55

[jwilson1985]

i believe a good read to....to your question before you pull the trigger you must have a sight on what you are shooting at. Without training or lots of round counts i dont think someone will know what the proper sight picture is. also how does one control the mind when your mind tries to say run and everything is going crazy around us,if one finds their self being shot at vs range time.training

Guys:

This is turning into a damn good professional discussion. Hopefully others on the forum can pick up some good things.

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a second.

How does the shooter develop position without first being totally comfortable that he knows what a good sight picture looks like? Isn't the end state of a position attaining a consistent sight picture?

LR55

[rkflorey]

The last several years of LE recruits I helped train had the most trouble with staying focused on a task. When I saw that ability in a recruit they seemed to be able to bring all the elements of shooting together. The largest group I am sad to say was the group that seemed to wander away mentally in the middle of a practice session. I believe that focus can be learned and that it helps when Murphy shows up and all hell breaks loose.
That focus doesn't remove fear or stop that little voice that says run like hell. It puts it aside and lets you deal with the situation, pay attention to the threat.
I think the military was the best at that training, but from talking to friends who served even they started to see and have to deal with the same problems with recruits we saw in the civilian sector.
Focusing on those small tasks one at a time, then combining them with dry fire and manipulation skills until the shooters are confident saved time, money and made life easier for the student and the instructor. OK I will step off the soap box now and let someone else rattle on now.... K

[LR1955]

The last several years of LE recruits I helped train had the most trouble with staying focused on a task. When I saw that ability in a recruit they seemed to be able to bring all the elements of shooting together. The largest group I am sad to say was the group that seemed to wander away mentally in the middle of a practice session. I believe that focus can be learned and that it helps when Murphy shows up and all hell breaks loose.
That focus doesn't remove fear or stop that little voice that says run like hell. It puts it aside and lets you deal with the situation, pay attention to the threat.
I think the military was the best at that training, but from talking to friends who served even they started to see and have to deal with the same problems with recruits we saw in the civilian sector.
Focusing on those small tasks one at a time, then combining them with dry fire and manipulation skills until the shooters are confident saved time, money and made life easier for the student and the instructor. OK I will step off the soap box now and let someone else rattle on now.... K

K:

I have been around this business for many years and wish I had a dollar for every time someone said it was the recruit(s) that lacked something, not the training doctrine or trainers.

Many times someone says the individual is not paying attention because he is not performing to a standard. He is probably paying too much attention to doctrine that is most likely impossible for a human being to accomplish with any degree of consistency.

We ought to hold off on the topic of training execution and coaching for now but you can be assured I will make it a thread very shortly.

LR1955

[JASmith]

LR & Co,

I am thoroughly enjoying the read -- and am slowly coming to an understanding of why I had difficulty with precise rapid fire in competitive shooting, even though I could do reasonably well in slow-fire precision shooting with the pistol. I did OK with the NRA "Rapid Fire" where we had ten seconds to do five shots at the same bullseye. My hiccup was doing the International Style competition where we had five seconds to shoot five different targets. I tended to lose the squeeze and to jerk the trigger in this faster-paced competition.

It seems that there is something of a chicken and egg situation with positioning. The good news is that the proper sight picture can be illustrated in several different ways, and can be practiced to a limited extent using rests so the shooter can develop comfort that that is indeed a sight picture that works. Then a coach can help the shooter find a good position. After that it is learning to smoothly go into position under appropriate instruction, coaching and lots of repetition.

In my view, the smoothly getting into the position is the first place where what we popularly call muscle memory comes into play.

The slow-careful trigger squeeze has remained a conscious act in my shooting.

The truly new idea for me is that the smooth trigger pull needs to be practiced so it becomes a subconscious act! Knowing that might have made a difference for me many years ago.

[LRRPF52]

I know that whenever I index, or position myself, it is in relation to the target based on how my natural point of aim is oriented to the target from previous shooting experiences on those types of targets.

When I get in the prone for a longer range target, I look intently at the target in the distance and focus on the smallest aspect of it as I lower myself, also locating a dominant reference point in the target area that I can anchor off of since it is common to get lost in the FOV of the scope.

The point is that the target determines my position, regardless of the range, and this helps immensely with NPOA. I also "settle" the gun into the position before I take the shot so the first shot isn't the settler, and follow-on shots have a higher probability of grouping closer to the first, or holding closer to POA.

[LR1955]

LR & Co,

The good news is that the proper sight picture can be illustrated in several different ways, and can be practiced to a limited extent using rests so the shooter can develop comfort that that is indeed a sight picture that works. Then a coach can help the shooter find a good position. After that it is learning to smoothly go into position under appropriate instruction, coaching and lots of repetition.

In my view, the smoothly getting into the position is the first place where what we popularly call muscle memory comes into play.

The truly new idea for me is that the smooth trigger pull needs to be practiced so it becomes a subconscious act! Knowing that might have made a difference for me many years ago.

JAS:

OK -- here we go with memory and how it functions. I am of the view that memory consists of pictures that we store much like a computer. The difference is that when faced with unique situations, humans will take parts of various pictures (memories) and combine them in a manner that presents a solution. We then execute the picture we created in our working memory while at the same time continually adapting that picture in order to achieve some sort of goal.

When it comes to a decision about emphasis on the physical act of position over sight picture -- ask yourself what will be burned into memory more clearly and permanently -- the actual sight picture or your perception of a good position? And, what dictates your position -- making the body assume a stance where you can easily see the sight picture you know is right or getting into what you perceive as a good position -- until you try to gain that sight picture?

When we start guys out on the NMC, we sand bag them in at 200 and have them shoot until they shoot ten consecutive 10's on a standard NRA 200 yard center. This is before we get into position issues. One iteration is not enough for someone to be convinced they can bring that same picture back into working memory but if done at the beginning of training for four or five consecutive training days, that seems enough for them to be able to recognize the difference between a 10 and an 9 for example.

This is not a new training concept. The logic is simple. What two things must be trained to shoot well? Train the eyes to see a 10 for example and the finger to move. Position won't be perfect and when guys get into trouble is when their position is not good and thus distracts their attention from what they must do to perform -- pull the trigger when their eyes see good.

I have had some good success with Soldiers who have big problems zeroing by focusing them solely on maintaining a 'perfect' sight picture through the entire shot to re-indexing. It sounds simple and it is because those same Soldiers who are having such problems are most likely trying to attend to several things at the periphery of their conscious at one time. By reducing these distractions and focusing them on the one thing they know they can do, you see very positive results. The reason they know they can maintain a good sight picture is because that sight picture is a picture, not a concept such as 'hold hard' or 'smooth and fast'.

One thing for sure is that if a person knows they must maintain that picture in their head through an entire shot, they will regulate themselves in a manner that will allow it to happen far more often than not. And what is better for their individual progression is that they will know immediately if they let their attention shift from that focus.

Some will say that I forgot the trigger pull. Not at all. They know they have to pull the trigger and will do so, particularly if you make them maintain a time standard. In this specific case, five shots in 30 seconds. I will not tell them how to pull the trigger as they don't know smooth and fast from rough and slow. Push it into the subconscious by forcing their conscious on sight picture and sight picture alone.

So, I am a believer in drilling them on what a good sight picture looks like before getting into detail on position. Not that we won't work on position. We will but initially my emphasis is on ingraining a good sight picture into their memory.

LR1955

[LR1955]

i believe a good read to....to your question before you pull the trigger you must have a sight on what you are shooting at. Without training or lots of round counts i dont think someone will know what the proper sight picture is. also how does one control the mind when your mind tries to say run and everything is going crazy around us,if one finds their self being shot at vs range time.training

JW:

We will get into some of this as the discussion progresses into training techniques. One of the things I am hot on is ammunition consumption. You guys were lucky in terms of the amount of ammo units were getting over the last ten years. Take my word for it, that will change very quickly and unit trainers will have to know how to get the most value for the ammo they will be issued.

For now, lets just look at it in terms of you taking someone out to the range and making them into a good marksman.

LR1955

[bwaites]

Having attended LR1955's Precision Rifle Course mulitple times, I refrained from answering until now. I was a raw shooter when I first went, I had never shot anything past 100 yards. In less than 3 hours, and in strong 25-35 MPH full value winds I (and the two sons with me, ages 19 and 21 at the time) was able to consistently hit an IPSC target at 700 yards with a 19 inch Grendel, and to hit an 8" center flag about 30% of the time.

LR1955 taught us that sight picture was critical, and that the trigger squeeze would take care of itself if we just focused on the sight picture. No breathing technique, no positioning. Simply get behind the rifle, find a comfortable position, and see the target. Interestingly, my sons, who had even less trigger time than I, but much better eyes, and even better muscle control, were faster at picking up the idea than I was. I was too involved in all the other stuff, and once LR1955 convinced me to let it go, and just do what my eye and mind told me to do, I was much more successful.

The Precision Rifle Course has you shooting with a spotter, so you are seeing and shooting, not deciding how much wind to put on, how much elevation, etc. You are the shooting machine, and he is the one who decides those things. Once you allow yourself to do that, the shooting becomes much easier. It becomes more complicated once you are on your own, because you have to add those things back in to your responsibility, but once you are comfortable with the "sight picture, shoot it" process, and have confidence in your ability in that regard, the rest becomes simply adding on to your skill set.

Heck, just posting this I realized a couple things that I have forgotten or not been implementing, so this is really a good conversation!

BUT....for me its an ever evolving and learning process. Every competition, I try to watch better shooters, and learn from them.

[fanofflyn]

I'm a relative newbie to this forum, but I see a lot of the same people in very clearly advanced ideas on a consistent basis in the discussions, and it's usually the people that I see in this particular discussion. I'm really happy to see this level of information, and it really reinforces to me the strength of this forum, as well as providing me the level of ideas that I couldn't get before. Even if I'm wrong, which is common, I get the feeling that my ideas are welcome and discussed. Thanks for helping me understand

[Mutt]

My experience has always been that if you can train yourself to perform the same act over and over again, you will develop muscle memory and a natural point of aim. This was very important when night shooting. You couldn't always get a perfect sight picture. But, if you were comfortable that you are on target by using your natural point of aim, then you can move on to positively identifying the target.

From my point of view, learning the basics and developing muscle memory allows you to "get" that sight picture easier. If you put your body and gun in the right position every time (if that is possible ... depending on circumstances), it will be right where you need it to be to get a good sight picture.

The process that LR1955 is describing is fine, I'm not disagreeing ...... but it appears that he is coaching shooters that already know how to shoot. I'm sure it is easier for bwaites to get that sight picture he needs than a new shooter with no expercience. bwaites already knows what feels right and when he is in a good shooting stance. That's half the game. If you already developed the ability to perform a given task (sighting in to shoot) with repitition, then you can move on to fine tuning the rest.

When I initially brought up "muscle memory" in the first thread, it was in response to a person asking how we shoulder our rifle. I assumed that person was a new shoooter (I could be wrong). I talked about how I would teach a person how to hold and operate the gun and then encourage them to practice the basics and try to develope muscle memory for those tasks. LRRPF52 asked what our deffinitions of muscle memory where, and the muscle memory threads were born. LR1955 is talking about visual memory which is a whole different animal. Muscle memory is teaching your mind/body to remember how to do a task by repeating that task over and over until it becomes a natural movement. I believe that LR1955 is talking about memorizing (visually) what a good sight picture is and shooting when you see what you have memorized ..... but I could be wrong. LR1955 says that by concentrating on the sight picture, the trigger pull will take care of itself. But, I stand on the concept that the trigger pull can only take care of itself if you teach your body to do it correctly. And, train your body to remember how to do it correctly by doing it over and over again. Muscle memory is just a term commonly used to describe this and shouldn't be confused with visual memory.