Video of Squad Designated Marksman Training by President's 100 Shooters

[LRRPF52]

Here's a great video from some President's 100 shooters who are teaching some young joes about marksmanship. A lot of myths are dispelled, and a lot of interesting details are discussed about position, sight alignment, breathing, trigger control, and follow-through.

[video=youtube;8rLfYLM48Ms]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rLfYLM48Ms[/video]

[shotgun_wedding]

Saw this a few months ago - glad to know it's good stuff. Haven't been to the range since I saw it, but I have done some practice in the living room...

[Buck2732]

A cracking vid, some parts of the took me straight back to 84 and basic training. It reminded me of the four marksmanship principals that was drummed into us.

1, The position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon.
2, The weapon must point naturally at the target, without any undue physical effort.
3, Sight alignment and the sight picture, ie aiming must be correct.
4, The shot must be released and followed through with out disturbing the firers position.

Written in the course book fifty times that night (checked in the am by the trg team). Then used as a training period at every range we went to.

I guess you folks knew all those already.

[bwaites]

Those of us using IPads need the link!

[KentuckyBuddha]

Those of us using IPads need the link!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...rLfYLM48Ms

[LRRPF52]

A cracking vid, some parts of the took me straight back to 84 and basic training. It reminded me of the four marksmanship principals that was drummed into us.

1, The position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon.
2, The weapon must point naturally at the target, without any undue physical effort.
3, Sight alignment and the sight picture, ie aiming must be correct.
4, The shot must be released and followed through with out disturbing the firers position.

Written in the course book fifty times that night (checked in the am by the trg team). Then used as a training period at every range we went to.

I guess you folks knew all those already.

One thing I noticed is that in Basic Rifle Marksmanship instruction in US Army basic training, I didn't recall mention of follow-through. I'm pretty sure it was absent from the training. I became familiar with follow-through as I studied TC 23-14 and other Sniper Training Manuals, and it is part of Sniper marksmanship instruction. I like how the instructor gets into the details of position, breathing, trigger control, diagnosing shot placement/vertical stringing, buttstock-to-shoulder-to-head positioning, dispelling common training habits about trigger finger positioning, etc.

As a long-time shooter, I always find it beneficial to immerse in the basics, become intimate with them, and focus on them more as time goes on.

[shotgun_wedding]

I have some questions about this video compared to what they teach in Appleseed. Most of what they teach is identical or very close. There are some differences, though.

For example, they teach the Olympic prone. The prone position they showed in the video seemed to have the shooter's body square with the barrel of the gun, rather than angled, as is shown in 'The Art of the Rifle'. Is that a personal preference, or does it make some difference?

Another area is the trigger finger making contact with the stock/grip ('dragging wood'). That is discouraged at Appleseed, but was not mentioned in the video.

My only experience with 'formal' marksmanship training has been at Appleseed.

[Mic]

Watched the first 15 min so far. Pretty good stuff. I did notice that a couple of the 4 rules of safety (don't point, finger off trigger) were routinely violated in there. Curious if they don't dwell on safety that much in the military, instead opting for the "well this gun's not loaded, so it doesn't make a difference" attitude.

[Mic]

I have some questions about this video compared to what they teach in Appleseed. Most of what they teach is identical or very close. There are some differences, though.

For example, they teach the Olympic prone. The prone position they showed in the video seemed to have the shooter's body square with the barrel of the gun, rather than angled, as is shown in 'The Art of the Rifle'. Is that a personal preference, or does it make some difference?

Another area is the trigger finger making contact with the stock/grip ('dragging wood'). That is discouraged at Appleseed, but was not mentioned in the video.

My only experience with 'formal' marksmanship training has been at Appleseed.

On one of the Guns and Ammo TV episodes, they had some military guys talking about shooting prone and they specifically pointed out shooting with your body behind the gun, not at an angle, so that your shots would not disturb your position as much (more solid to be lined up behind the gun).

[LRRPF52]

In basic training, we were shown the angled prone position with the cocked leg. In sniper training, we used the triangulation and body straight behind the gun. The gun tracks better and the position supports follow-though well for most shooters. There are still some shooters that do well with the cocked leg technique because they like to have as much as there torso in contact with the ground. Try both positions and see what works well for your unique anatomy.



The prone is mostly useful for showing what you and your system can do, so it's really a pre-school/kindergarten position of limited-to-no use in real terrain. The M24 and those M14 EBR's are horrible for trying to shoot positions with, as there's way too much weight in the wrong places.

[bwaites]

Interesting stuff.

I've tended to have my body at and angle, but have been trying to get behind the rifle in a more perpindicular position, because I seem to pick up the target faster after a shot that way.

I suspect because the rifle goes up and comes down in line and I don't have my neck canted to deal with it.

[Buck2732]

One thing I noticed is that in Basic Rifle Marksmanship instruction in US Army basic training, I didn't recall mention of follow-through. I'm pretty sure it was absent from the training. I became familiar with follow-through as I studied TC 23-14 and other Sniper Training Manuals, and it is part of Sniper marksmanship instruction. I like how the instructor gets into the details of position, breathing, trigger control, diagnosing shot placement/vertical stringing, buttstock-to-shoulder-to-head positioning, dispelling common training habits about trigger finger positioning, etc.

As a long-time shooter, I always find it beneficial to immerse in the basics, become intimate with them, and focus on them more as time goes on.

It was oh to easy for our instructors to know if we where following through, as both the L1A1 and L85 A1/A2 make a distinctive click when the trigger is released after the working parts have cycled. Following though after we converted from the L1A1 caught a few of the old and bold out when we first shot the L85 in auto.

I have a friend a current EOD serving operator I shoot with most weekends, though he has a great of potential as a rifle shot he suffers from never having any formal marksmanship training. I have spent many hours trying to get him to follow though his shots. Even to the point of standing beside him and cocking his weapon after he has taken his shot so he can hear and feel what should happen (remember these are side pull neutered AR15s). He just starts to get it, then he goes back to work and shoots his L85 and forgets everything. Frustrating, as we are supposed to be shooting as a pair in a comp later in the year.

[LR1955]

It was oh to easy for our instructors to know if we where following through, as both the L1A1 and L85 A1/A2 make a distinctive click when the trigger is released after the working parts have cycled. Following though after we converted from the L1A1 caught a few of the old and bold out when we first shot the L85 in auto.

I have a friend a current EOD serving operator I shoot with most weekends, though he has a great of potential as a rifle shot he suffers from never having any formal marksmanship training. I have spent many hours trying to get him to follow though his shots. Even to the point of standing beside him and cocking his weapon after he has taken his shot so he can hear and feel what should happen (remember these are side pull neutered AR15s). He just starts to get it, then he goes back to work and shoots his L85 and forgets everything. Frustrating, as we are supposed to be shooting as a pair in a comp later in the year.

Buck:

Here is a technique I have had success in using with a variety of people.

Tell the guy you want him to take his shot and hold the trigger back until he has his sight picture again. When his eyes are seeing that he is maintaining a second sight picture, he may release the trigger until it clicks, etc.

That said, he needs to know why he should do this. Otherwise he will soon dispense with it. For tactical situations, the reason is obvious. For precision applications not as obvious. Basically, some guys tend to break position before they finish their shot. In other words, as they are pulling the trigger, they break position. By 'following through', a person is less inclined to break a position or screw up a trigger pull because his focus is on the shot through the entire shot. I have found breaking position before the shot is done to be pretty common with bolt gunners who are doing rapid or sustained fire.

I tend to have people focus their attention on their sight picture through the entire process. Some are conscious they are pulling the trigger and others, not. It doesn't matter because if they are maintaining their sight picture when the shot is fired and they have a good zero, etc., then their shot will be good. Focusing on sight picture during the breathing and lead-in is also a good way for guys to clear the brain from chatter and focus it on what needs to be done for good performance. In a couple of breaths, a person can relax themselves, clear chatter, and make a good shot. Even after severe physical exertion.

I have other techniques as well that work with some folks but this one seems to work very well with a variety of shooters involved in a variety of shooting requirements.

LR1955

[Buck2732]

Buck:

Here is a technique I have had success in using with a variety of people.

Tell the guy you want him to take his shot and hold the trigger back until he has his sight picture again. When his eyes are seeing that he is maintaining a second sight picture, he may release the trigger until it clicks, etc.

That said, he needs to know why he should do this. Otherwise he will soon dispense with it. For tactical situations, the reason is obvious. For precision applications not as obvious. Basically, some guys tend to break position before they finish their shot. In other words, as they are pulling the trigger, they break position. By 'following through', a person is less inclined to break a position or screw up a trigger pull because his focus is on the shot through the entire shot. I have found breaking position before the shot is done to be pretty common with bolt gunners who are doing rapid or sustained fire.

I tend to have people focus their attention on their sight picture through the entire process. Some are conscious they are pulling the trigger and others, not. It doesn't matter because if they are maintaining their sight picture when the shot is fired and they have a good zero, etc., then their shot will be good. Focusing on sight picture during the breathing and lead-in is also a good way for guys to clear the brain from chatter and focus it on what needs to be done for good performance. In a couple of breaths, a person can relax themselves, clear chatter, and make a good shot. Even after severe physical exertion.

I have other techniques as well that work with some folks but this one seems to work very well with a variety of shooters involved in a variety of shooting requirements.

LR1955

LR1955,

Thanks that looks like a really great way of getting him to grasp the idea. Before I left the RAF I was a firearms instructor and coach for 13 years, he is proving by far the hardest pupil I have ever had.

The thing is we both shoot clays, birds and practical shotgun. He shoots all these better than I (a life long rifle shooter). He is the other way around. Although he has had some training on the use of the rifle, he has never had the same amount of training on marksmanship I did had during training.

He has never shot over 100 yards so the lack of follow through has not had much impact on his shooting. I want to get him to Bisley, on the longer ranges there in an attempt to show him that it will double the error. Thus spoiling his acceptable groups at 100 yards. We could then get on to the 1200m point with his .308 rem 700 and my Grendel, with some confidence that he will have some fun. As I say he has great potential, if only he could become consistent. It may even help him if he gets involved on the two way range again.

[LR1955]

LR1955,

Thanks that looks like a really great way of getting him to grasp the idea. Before I left the RAF I was a firearms instructor and coach for 13 years, he is proving by far the hardest pupil I have ever had.

The thing is we both shoot clays, birds and practical shotgun. He shoots all these better than I (a life long rifle shooter). He is the other way around. Although he has had some training on the use of the rifle, he has never had the same amount of training on marksmanship I did had during training.

He has never shot over 100 yards so the lack of follow through has not had much impact on his shooting. I want to get him to Bisley, on the longer ranges there in an attempt to show him that it will double the error. Thus spoiling his acceptable groups at 100 yards. We could then get on to the 1200m point with his .308 rem 700 and my Grendel, with some confidence that he will have some fun. As I say he has great potential, if only he could become consistent. It may even help him if he gets involved on the two way range again.

Buck:

Something I thought of while training today. How well a guy does positively correlates with the degree he is motivated to be good. Some guys are highly motivated to improve their marksmanship, believe strongly that they can improve their marksmanship, and so dedicate sufficient time and resources to train towards their marksmanship goals. Other guys like shooting and may even like competitive shooting but have other priorities for their attention, time, and resources. Their goal may be to just go out and have some fun shooting. If they score well, they are happy. If not, they are probably indifferent but view their shooting as something exciting and fun anyway.

About follow through. To me, it isn't the most vital thing a guy must do to shoot well. Certainly, it probably helps in consistency but is not the most important thing a guy must do. Like breathing, follow through is often used as a reason for poor performance when something else is really causing the problem or problems.

A couple of questions you may want to ask him.

1. What is his motivation when involved with marksmanship activities?

2. What are his outcome and process goals (if any)?

3. Where is his attention focused when he is shooting?

One to ask yourself is: How did you conclude his problems are due to 'follow through' and not something else?

I don't need to know your answers to these questions unless you want to send them to me. I do think they will help you if you continue to work with him. Remember that he must do the same thing shooting clays as he must do with a rifle, pistol, machinegun, in order to perform well.

LR1955

[LR1955]

I have some questions about this video compared to what they teach in Appleseed. Most of what they teach is identical or very close. There are some differences, though.

For example, they teach the Olympic prone. The prone position they showed in the video seemed to have the shooter's body square with the barrel of the gun, rather than angled, as is shown in 'The Art of the Rifle'. Is that a personal preference, or does it make some difference?

Another area is the trigger finger making contact with the stock/grip ('dragging wood'). That is discouraged at Appleseed, but was not mentioned in the video.

My only experience with 'formal' marksmanship training has been at Appleseed.

SW:

As for the prone position you see in the film, it is what the Army instructs for shooting prone off of a bipod. The Army claims it is more stable and easier to swing the barrel left or right in tactical conditions, provides for better recoil control, and gives a smaller target from the front. The smaller target is problematic and if you are right handed, it is still difficult to swing a barrel to the right. As for recoil control, such a position is not the best but does work. It is not an ideal position for comfort or breathing over an extended period of time but it may be the only way a guy can go prone while wearing the body armor and rack. Fortunately, the stock is adjustable. A better position has the non firing leg pretty much straight behind the body and the firing side leg cocked up towards the chest some. Swinging the barrel is made much easier by swinging the non firing leg left or right and it is immensely easier to make elevation changes of the barrel by either extending or compressing the firing side leg. Furthermore, the firing side leg being cocked forward gives much better recoil control, which is very important with an M-14 as they do smack you out of position if you aren't pretty secure. It acts like a recoil spring. Much easier to breath, too. The problem with it is that the body armor prohibits such a position where your torso is somewhat twisted. That said, it is the most common prone position you will see for NRA High Power. The old 'leg or legs angled to one side' stuff is inefficient, lacks recoil control, and basically prohibits a shooter from being able to fine tune his position with his legs.

BTW -- this is the first time I have ever seen formal Army instruction that rationally approaches breathing. I have heard breathing used as the reason for every imaginable marksmanship problem. Anything from blasting all over a target through all sorts of stringing. I even heard one NCO claim it was 'breathing' that was causing a zero group to be at the top of the zero target. In fact, the GI had his rear sight cranked up to 8 for zeroing and his grouping was excellent. He cranked it back down to 3(00) and zeroed to Army standards in a few minutes time. Don't fret any, although I got the breathing excuse somewhat cleared up for some guys over about a ten year period, it was supplanted by 'nose on charging handle', 'spot weld' (that can't happen with a AR design), 'cheek weld', and or 'pad of trigger finger', as being the reason for every mechanical or technical problem experienced by a Joe on a rifle range. He, he, he.

I have never heard formal instruction ever offer that perhaps it is more important to pull a trigger when you see a good sight picture than it is to have your cheek mashed against the stock in a certain manner, or your nose crushed against the charging handle, or the pad of your finger on the trigger, dragging wood, or breathing, etc.

Dragging wood was discussed by the NCO's although they didn't call it that. Probably not what you want to do with a rifle while shooting but it is a very minor issue that applies much more to the conventionally designed and over-sized stocks used on the 'Super Match' M-14's. You almost couldn't get away without dragging wood unless your fingers where about 8 inches long. Pistol grips have rendered 'dragging wood' obsolete although I am sure someone can force it if they want. Again though, a very minor issue at the stage of training of the guys in the film. Take my word for it, Joe will do what you ask of him. For example, if Joe thinks you are emphasizing mashing your cheek against the stock is a certain manner as being 'critical' to success, that is what he will do, even if by doing so he must strain his neck or eyes to get a lousy sight picture through his optic. Start out with what is absolutely critical (seeing and trigger pull) and Joe will adapt the rifle or himself accordingly.

LR1955

[LR1955]

Watched the first 15 min so far. Pretty good stuff. I did notice that a couple of the 4 rules of safety (don't point, finger off trigger) were routinely violated in there. Curious if they don't dwell on safety that much in the military, instead opting for the "well this gun's not loaded, so it doesn't make a difference" attitude.

Mic:

Guess no one answered you.

It isn't an 'doesn't make a difference' attitude. For the Army, the guys were doing everything perfectly correct in terms of safety. The Army depends highly on Muzzle and Situational Awareness. I did not note anything in the film indicating these concepts were not being followed perfectly. The guys knew the condition of the rifles and did the right things at the right time.

I do not expect civilians to maintain muzzle and situational awareness as for most civilians, excluding those involved in the more dangerous professions, there is no day to day need for them to develop these mental skills. So, they tend to come up with rules that try to prevent every possible problem and these rules can sometimes be contradictory or so nuanced that it becomes impossible for someone to follow them. When people think that the rules are so vague, so contradictory, or so complex that they can't possibly be followed, they tend to ignore all rules. Which of itself is pretty scary.

LR1955