Need help choosing powders

[Roe]

Need help choosing powders, I am not at all familiar with Hodgdon powders and I have a limited availability/ cost allowance.

What I'll be using:
Bolt action rifle 16-18" (not decided yet, rifle is in the build)
123 gr bullets, Hornady Amax and Nosler custom competition.
Lapua Brass
Federal Primers

The powders available that seems suitable:
H335
Benchmark
CFE223

I will likely pick up only ONE powder and make do with whatever result I get from that.

[bwaites]

Using 123 and higher, CFE223

[Savage Shooter]

If you have a limited budget and you reload for other cartridges, you might want to pick a powder that is suitable for the greatest number of cartridges. Second, H335 and Benchmark are very close in burn rate (with both being faster than CFE223, but you'll probably get the highest velocity out of the slower burning CFE (and reportedly less copper fouling, which is what I found in my .223, although I get better accuracy from Benchmark). But every gun is different. I have not yet reloaded for my 6.5 Grendel (I am a Grendel "newbie", although I have fairly extensive experience with other cartridges), but I have been reading through the site and based on my notes, CFE223 and 8208 seem to be leading favorites, with IMR's 8208 XBR being mentioned A LOT, especially for the 123 gr AMAX. HOWEVER, note that HORNADY doesn't mention 8208 as a recommended powder for 123 gr bullets, even though they have it listed as the fastest powder for the 129 gr. bullets. But since you didn't mention that powder, of the three above, you might try the CFE223. If you don't get the accuracy you hope for, before switching powders, pick up another brand of primer for $4 - $5 a box of 100 (depending on how much your LGS is gouging these days) and try that as a cheaper "tweak". Just be sure to reduce your loads when switching primers and work back up carefully.

[Joseph5]

I have only loaded CFE223 so far in my Grendel but I am not seeing any reason to try anything else either at the moment. It is launching my 123gr bullets at around 2650 and 100 and 95gr bullets at around 2950 with excellent accuracy. I haven't had a chance to try it in my 5.56 and 308 yet but it is suppose to be excellent in them also. If I can ever get my house sold so I can get set up in another where I am at now I will try some of the other powders I have and see how they do.

[Savage Shooter]

I have only loaded CFE223 so far in my Grendel but I am not seeing any reason to try anything else either at the moment. It is launching my 123gr bullets at around 2650 and 100 and 95gr bullets at around 2950 with excellent accuracy.

Are those chronographed velocities? What barrel length and twist ? Hornady lists 30.3 gr CFE223 as max for 95-100gr and 31.2 gr as max for 123 gr, but at substantially lower velocities in an 18" bbl. Are you loading a little hotter than that?

[LRRPF52]

CFE is my go-to powder for 123gr. I get significantly higher velocities, and practical accuracy is such that it allows cleaning of a know your limits rack at 500yds from a 16" barrel. I easily achieved over 2500fps from a 16" barrel with it. I'll have to see how it shoots from my 18" barrels.




Here's a thread where I detailed my results with CFE223: http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...6-quot-Grendel

[lead chucker]

I really like CFE for 123gn amax and SSTs, I get great accuracy and velocity from it. I do get great accuracy from 8208 also but lacking in velocity. I use benchmark for 95gn vmax and speer 90gn TNTs with great accuracy and velocity.

[Joseph5]

Savage Shooter,
Those are chronographed velocities. There was a correction on the Hornady site for there CFE load for the 95-100gr bullets. It was misprinted in the manual. I am using a Lilja AR24 barrel which is 22 inches long and has a 1 in 8 twist. The load I am using is 32 grains of CFE with the 123 gr SST/AMAX and with the 95-100gr VMAX/AMAX I loaded 34 grains of CFE. I did pressure ladders with both loads shooting over the chrono as LRRPF52 has described on this site and these are safe in my rifle. I stopped before I got any indications of unsafe pressure from velocity deviations, brass, or primer indications. The SD on them is higher than I would like but both loads shoot sub MOA out to 300 yards on paper and 500 yard hits are easy on 12 inch diameter steel. I tried switching primers and the SD stayed the same. As good as these loads shoots I am probably just going to leave it be. Shooting is a lot funner than obsessing over something that doesn't seem to be a problem.

[FW Conch]

I hurd dat! :-))

[Savage Shooter]

Thanks for the info Joseph, especially on the 95-100 gr bullets - that helps clear things up a bit. I also found LRR's postings on his "pushing" the CFE loads and was going to try the same myself (starting at a safe 28.0 gr and working up with the 123 AMAX/SSTs, but I'll probably stop where you did, even if there are no adverse pressure signs). I have only shot the Hornady factory loads for both bullets and got SDs of 5-11, which I thought was outstanding, but the velocity was only in the mid 2500s with a 24" barrel and I think I can get more based on reports here. Also, accuracy was 0.6- 1 MOA, which is certainly acceptable, especially since it's a brand new barrel, but I am hoping to find an accuracy node at a higher velocity.

And I hear you about not spending an inordinate amount of time trying to squeeze another 25 fps or lower my groups 1/4 MOA. As an engineer, I have to fight that impulse, but if I am honest with myself, my best improvements in the field will probably be made by improving my shooting skills via practice and not my equipment/loads.

[LRRPF52]

Just make sure to load ladders in no more than .3gr increments, since we have between 30 and 35gr of capacity with CFE (1% of actual case capacity = ~.3gr).

Also notice that I was using 2.275" COL for those tests. The main reason I ran the tests into the charge weights that I did was because of the published data for the 129gr Hornady bullets, which was higher than the 120-123gr bullets. Max for 120-123gr was listed at 31.2gr, and max for 129gr was listed at 31.7gr.

I suspected that maybe the 120gr GMX played a role in that, since it has a different alloy and start pressure, and was included with the 120-123gr load data. I focused on the chronograph as my main source of feedback for signs of a pressure departure from the trend. It was an if then experiment for me on this premise:

If the max load for a conventional cup and core bullet from the same manufacturer weighted at 129gr, with a longer bearing surface is 31.7gr...
..then the max load for a cup and core bullet with the same alloys and basic construction, with less weight and less bearing surface should be more than 31.7gr, not .5gr less.

At least in my case, I saw a textbook linear increase in velocity per charge weight, until I got into the 2600fps realm, and in the mid-2600's, I saw a departure, combined with slight cratering of primers. This being from a 16" barrel, so that is what really sold me on CFE, not that I would load 2600fps, but I became very comfortable with a 123gr at 2500-2550fps, which would be under or at the same pressures as a 129gr at max load.

[Savage Shooter]

LRR,

Do you know if anyone here has pulled together the fps/gain/inch of barrel length into any sort of table? I see all sorts of velocity comparisons for barrel length and many folks are using the same powder/bullet combinations, and I think the general "rule of thumb" across a variety of cartridges is 20 - 35 fps gain per inch of barrel length, but there is a minimum/maximum range of barrel length over which that applies. And of course there should be a theoretical point at which there would be no more gain in velocity, because pressures and case volume would limit the amount of powder that could be burned and then friction and drag on the bullet would likely cause a DECREASE in velocity for increasing bbl length.

For a given powder/primer/bullet/seating depth combination, varying only the powder weight in a SAAMI spec chamber but using guns of different bbl lengths, having a charge weight vs. velocity vs. bbl length comparison would be an interesting chart to see, if it has been done already. And if it has not been done, it might be an interesting project for the horde to work on for maybe 3 of the most popular powders and the three most popular bullet weights. For .3 gr increments over a 5 gr max spread (16 loads) using 3 different powders and 3 different bullet weights, and 5 different bbl lengths (16, 18, 20, 22, 24) that would be a total of 144 loads for each shooter (assuming he has only one bbl length rifle) and a total of 720 total data points for average velocity (probably 3600 total firings among all participants if they fire five shots per weight/bullet/powder combo to get average velocity). A big task to actually test vs. using a predictive program - if one exists.

[am4966]

Savage fps/lose or gain/barrel " those has been done someone has a chart floating around. Hell probably one in the reloading books. I've seen it, that's why you see alot of 18" ARs being built imo don't lose much great all around platform.

[Roe]

Thanks, that was an excellent thread. CFE is the "most plentiful" powder available at my location, the other powders was only very limited quantities on the shelf.

My build has now started, the gunsmith suggested a Lilja barrel which I agreed to.

[LRRPF52]

Savage Shooter: Yes, there is a chart already in Volume I of the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks. There is also an excellent Velocity Estimator on this website: http://shootersnotes.com/VelEstim.php

Keep in mind that two barrels from the same consecutive production line can vary by as much as 100fps, everything else the same.

Also, the velocity increase per inch of barrel length is not a linear function, but a curve. The curve is steep in the shorter barrel lengths, and flattens as the pipe gets longer. With the Grendel, we don't see a lot of fps gain passed about 20"-22". The shorter barrels actually do much better than a lot of people think.

Roe: You will be happy with the Lilja barrel. The bores on them are phenomenal.