Wolf Steel Case

[RangerRick]

I dunno, but it shows they are right: Allah truly IS great!

Thanks! It's good to start the day with a laugh.

Reminds me of a story my dad told me. He was an EOD man in the Air Force during Vietnam. Some SF guys showed up at his base with a cache of AK ammo they found hidden in the jungle. He thought they wanted him to destroy it. Nope, they wanted to open it up and replace the powder in a few with C4. Not all of them, just enough of them seeded throughout the cache to make these guys wince every time they pulled the trigger for fear it would go boom.

Then they carefully repacked it and the SF guys put it back where they found it. I'll bet the guys that used that ammo really had an attitude about Russian ammo after that!

RR

[mseric]

Reminds me of a story my dad told me. He was an EOD man in the Air Force during Vietnam. Some SF guys showed up at his base with a cache of AK ammo they found hidden in the jungle. He thought they wanted him to destroy it. Nope, they wanted to open it up and replace the powder in a few with C4. Not all of them, just enough of them seeded throughout the cache to make these guys wince every time they pulled the trigger for fear it would go boom.

Then they carefully repacked it and the SF guys put it back where they found it. I'll bet the guys that used that ammo really had an attitude about Russian ammo after that!

RR

Now that's interesting! Kinda brings out the paranoid in me. Makes me think twice about shooting ammo produced in a country we have basically been at war with for generations.

[JASmith]

Now that's interesting! Kinda brings out the paranoid in me. Makes me think twice about shooting ammo produced in a country we have basically been at war with for generations.

...which is another example of unintended consequences resulting from acting on ideas that seemed to be good at the time!

[Alex4922]

Sounds like some guys want to treat their rifles like a prom queen. Thats cool, I won't be feeding wolf into my AA rifle either. I do have a J&T 16" that will get a steady diet of the dog when it comes out. I've been taking carbine courses where we fire hundreds of rounds each day and I have very very rarely had a problem with wolf. My bushy looks like an unkept chimney at the end of the day but cleans up fine.

My point is that I couldn't afford to run these courses using expensive brass cased ammo. It's gonna be fun to try to come up to speed with a Grendel.

FWIW Alex

[LRRPF52]

Reminds me of a story my dad told me. He was an EOD man in the Air Force during Vietnam. Some SF guys showed up at his base with a cache of AK ammo they found hidden in the jungle. He thought they wanted him to destroy it. Nope, they wanted to open it up and replace the powder in a few with C4. Not all of them, just enough of them seeded throughout the cache to make these guys wince every time they pulled the trigger for fear it would go boom.

Then they carefully repacked it and the SF guys put it back where they found it. I'll bet the guys that used that ammo really had an attitude about Russian ammo after that!

RR

That was a SOG program with a funny little code name involving many different aspects of psychological warfare. It was called "Eldest Son". They used Kit Carson Scout couriers and exact model typewriters to forge letters from high command elements in the NVA infrastructure. The letters read as such:

"Comrade and Commander Nguyen. It has come to our attention that several lots of the Chinese ammunition for our Type 56 rifles have been mistakenly loaded with higher charges than normal. This is reported to be from the increased demand and faster manufacturing times of our Maoist comrades to the north, but we have been assured that the lots have been identified and the matter is being corrected. Please do not let any of this information leak to your subordinates, as we feel it might harm morale, even though your men have proven to be great fighters for the people of Vietnam. Long live Chairman Ho Chi Minh, and liberation to the people of Vietnam!"

They even duplicated the wax water seals of the different unit commanders, and sealed the rolled letters as such. The Kit Carson scouts would run the letters to their relay counterparts in the bicycle and foot-driven system, telling them: "Hey! Wait til you read this!!" The couriers, being like any Joe, often read the messages sent back and forth out of curiosity and to elevate their importance while associating with other soldiers. Soon the news of the faulty ammunition spread like wildfire throughout the NVA.

Whenever caches were located, SOG recon teams would often incorporate this tactic by immediately digging them up, while recording in a log book the exact sequence by which the cache was buried, to include mitigating booby traps, then exfil with a case of ammo. They'd do as you mentioned back at a FOB, then get the case of ammo back to the cache sight ASAP.

To add insult to injury, SOG crafted radio broadcasts that were run on the Armed Forces Radio Network...

"GOOD MORNING VIETNAM!!! Hey guys...this just in...we've received information that the Chinese ammo for enemy weapons has some problems in the manufacturing process, and there have been documented cases of assault rifles blowing up, killing the shooters. We've been advised to strongly warn you against picking up enemy weapons and using them, as it could result in serious injury or death. Thanks guys...and here's some Stones for ya........da da....da.da.daaaaa.da.da......da da..."

You absolutely have to read this gents: http://www.jcs-group.com/military/war1964/project.html

[BluntForceTrauma]

You guys see Fortier posted a nice photo of 6.5 Grendel steel-case over on AR15.com?

John

Wolf65mmsteelcase.jpg

[Bill Alexander]

The projectile design and weight is one of the parameters we are exploring. We are looking towards the best weight for the carbines without compromising down range ability. Equally there is a trade to be made in respect to construction wrt cost, accuracy and terminal performance. Given the market for this, cost will be the driver.

Other options are the case coating and the sealant type.

[Ned Christiansen]

Well I'm glad to hear that this ammo is just around the corner, but dang, that's where it's been for years now, since 2008 if not earlier. In my May 2010 article about the 6.5 in SWAT Magazine, I foolishly made the statement that it was already available (because they told me it was just around the corner). I'll believe it when I have some in hand!

Not to say I'm not a fan of Wolf ammo, actually I am. I consider it good stuff when correctly applied.

All this talk about it being Berdan primed, I would be surprised if it was. All the Wolf I've used (.223, 9mm, .45) was Boxer primed. I've reloaded some of the .45 just to try it (reloaded plenty of WWII USGI steel-cased .45 in my early days of .45 reloading)

[bwaites]

Well I'm glad to hear that this ammo is just around the corner, but dang, that's where it's been for years now, since 2008 if not earlier. In my May 2010 article about the 6.5 in SWAT Magazine, I foolishly made the statement that it was already available (because they told me it was just around the corner). I'll believe it when I have some in hand!

Not to say I'm not a fan of Wolf ammo, actually I am. I consider it good stuff when correctly applied.

All this talk about it being Berdan primed, I would be surprised if it was. All the Wolf I've used (.223, 9mm, .45) was Boxer primed. I've reloaded some of the .45 just to try it (reloaded plenty of WWII USGI steel-cased .45 in my early days of .45 reloading)

Welcome Ned! I've seen the cases, they are indeed Berdan primed. So unless something changes, that's what they'll be!

[Ned Christiansen]

I agree now, it will be Berdan primed (I cheated and went to the source ).

I'd love it if the stuff was made available, I agree it'd be a big boon to the 6.5 thing as a whole, but I'm gonna stay a skeptic until I'm seeing it delivered.

One thing I always wanted to try was pulling bullets from a small batch of steel cased 7.62X39, and turning them into 6.5G...... just as a theoretical Mad Max kind of thing. Now, skeptical though I may be of 6.5 steel-cased ammo availability, I'm pretty sure it'll show up before I get around to this particular experiment....!

[Clod Stomper]

I agree now, it will be Berdan primed (I cheated and went to the source ).

I'd love it if the stuff was made available, I agree it'd be a big boon to the 6.5 thing as a whole, but I'm gonna stay a skeptic until I'm seeing it delivered.

One thing I always wanted to try was pulling bullets from a small batch of steel cased 7.62X39, and turning them into 6.5G...... just as a theoretical Mad Max kind of thing. Now, skeptical though I may be of 6.5 steel-cased ammo availability, I'm pretty sure it'll show up before I get around to this particular experiment....!

I've done that, necked down steel cases and fired them through my Grendel. Worked fine. Not having any Berdan primers, I couldn't reload them. My purpose was to have some disposable rounds for hunting.

Dave Fortier (I believe) wrote an article detailing how he loaded one steel case over and over using boxer primers. This is from memory because I can't find the article right now. He punched out a flash hole in the center of the primer pocket. Large rifle primers were a bit too small to stay seated so he used a dab of epoxy that worked several times as long as it wasn't cleaned out. If it wasn't Fortier, I apologize to him and whoever did write the article.

I tried to punch out a boxer flash hole and promptly broke two decapping pins. If I REALLY needed to do it, I'd set up a jig and drill out the flash holes. It would all be a wasted effort now with Grendel steel case (hopefully) on the way. But for a "Mad Max" scenario, it's totally doable for one shot. Of course the unformed cases won't feed more than 6 or 7, maybe 8 rounds from a regular Grendel magazine.

If the steel cased Grendel is not almost as inexpensive as Eastern European 7.62x39 steel case, I may continue my experiment. Being the frugal chap that I am.

Will

[Ned Christiansen]

Bill, if I may, my knee-jerk choice on bullets for the 6.5 steelcased ammo would be, simply use the existing MPT or soft point...... especially as a "for now, to get it out there" measure. The SP's do a great job in gel, and I specifically tested them for deforming the points from rough handling and repeated feeding-- they got a little banged up but never failed to feed. The MPT's were more accurate (2-3", SP's gave me 3" to 4"-ish).

Or, if FMJ's are truly that much more economical to produce, maybe go all the way and use something that emulates the 5.45 military bullet....?

[bwaites]

Ned, the planned FMJ is very close to the bullet used in the 5.45, so should have comparable characteristics.

As for testing pre-production samples, I completely understand Alexander Arms reluctance. It's time consuming, expensive, and not necessarily indicative of the actual production ammunition. If production was a year away, maybe doing it to keep everyones interest up would be worthwhile, but Wolf has said we'll have the ammo late this year or first quarter of next year, so it won't be that long.

(Of course, we've heard that promise before, but we've never had the actual cases!)

[LRRPF52]

I've done that, necked down steel cases and fired them through my Grendel. Worked fine. Not having any Berdan primers, I couldn't reload them. My purpose was to have some disposable rounds for hunting.

Dave Fortier (I believe) wrote an article detailing how he loaded one steel case over and over using boxer primers. This is from memory because I can't find the article right now. He punched out a flash hole in the center of the primer pocket. Large rifle primers were a bit too small to stay seated so he used a dab of epoxy that worked several times as long as it wasn't cleaned out. If it wasn't Fortier, I apologize to him and whoever did write the article.

I tried to punch out a boxer flash hole and promptly broke two decapping pins. If I REALLY needed to do it, I'd set up a jig and drill out the flash holes. It would all be a wasted effort now with Grendel steel case (hopefully) on the way. But for a "Mad Max" scenario, it's totally doable for one shot. Of course the unformed cases won't feed more than 6 or 7, maybe 8 rounds from a regular Grendel magazine.

If the steel cased Grendel is not almost as inexpensive as Eastern European 7.62x39 steel case, I may continue my experiment. Being the frugal chap that I am.

Will

Yes, it was Fortier who wrote that article. There are also hydrostatic pressure, and pneumatic removal techniques that are less painful once the tooling is acquired for blowing out Berdan primers.

[Clod Stomper]

Yes, it was Fortier who wrote that article. There are also hydrostatic pressure, and pneumatic removal techniques that are less painful once the tooling is acquired for blowing out Berdan primers.

Thanks. I was pretty sure it was Fortier.

Depriming really isn't a problem. Finding a good source of Berdan primers can be, however.

Not that I would bother with steel cases. But I have quite a few good Berdan primed brass cases that I can't make myself throw away.

Will