Wolf vs. Hornady Brass comparison (with pics)

[rasp65]

QuadCam I bought a box each of the Hornady and the Wolf 120MPT earlier this summer. I put then in my case gauge and noticed the Wolf didn't quite come to the bottom of the gauge whereas the Hornady was almost at the top. If yours were similar there is a possibility that the Wolf case was driven against the shoulder of the chamber by the fireing pin strike. Upon ignition the case expands into the chamber walls before the case stretches the primers back out a little (or a lot in one case) and when the case expands to the bolt the primers are flattened to the extreme. The 2 boxes of Wolf 120MPT I fired were not as fast as my handloads I chronoed it the other day at 2448. Un fortunately I cleaned and deprimed them when I got home from the range so I can't compare to your picture, but I have always found cases with large rifle primers to have much flatter primers than the small rifle primed cases.

[QuadCam]

rasp65,

exactly the same as you. the wolf cases sit just below the low limit line. The hornady ammo sits flush with the top of the sheridan case gauge. Bill A explained that hornady made their brass at the upper limits of the grendel specs.

[sneaky one]

Iv'e seen the wolf primers so weakly gripped in the pocket, as to ,whisper scare == boo!---, them out.,, even before I shot them !!!! that's probably what happened there. F. = toss all - the wolf brass from 3-5 yrs. ago. Lucky me!!!! , I still have a few - 20 packs- of fact. loads. From - 08.,,, I'll have to have a garage sale-- yeah, that's the ticket!

[pinzgauer]

From - 08.,,, I'll have to have a garage sale-- yeah, that's the ticket!

Yep, that wolf stuff, too dangerous to shoot or even garage sale..... that's why I've offered WADS (Wolf Ammo Disposal Service). Send it to my WADS center for safe disposal so you don't have to worry about having a primer dropped on your toe, etc.

Seriously, I'll buy any grendel wolf, even SPT. I paid $9 per box new for most of my wolf, so I'll pay $5/box for any old "bad" Wolf. Just as a service to the Grendel community, you know.

I'm also recycling those horrible C-Product grendel mags for $3 each. And contact me if you need to get rid of one of your AA Barrels with the sloppily inaccurate .300 neck.

Our operators are standing by for your call!

[Jaywalker]

I don't speak ARs well enough to have an opinion on that Wolf brass, but if I saw that in a bolt action my first thought would be headspace, not pressure.

[sneaky one]

Ok pinz, drive to my place and you can have this wolf 123sp for 7.00 per box, dats dat. Accept?/ or decline. It's not good enuff - shoot a few then toss it. The 123 sp, was reading too fast over a chrono, over 2600, and could tell by the way it jump-bounced sideways off the bipod - each shot! Good enuff to soft reload 1-3 times afterward,, maybe. Sad that Bill .AA had to start off this way,, almost wrecked the whole Grr. deal..,, that plus c=products mags.,, oh well we move forward, as a cohesive team in the never ending, ( I hope!) quest for the best for the grr. Sometimes it seems that Bill A. could be in character as DRACULA-- and we all are his RENFIELDS!!!!!!!!!!

[pinzgauer]

you can have this wolf 123sp for 7.00 per box, dats dat.

I'll take them, how many boxes do you have? What do you think shipping would run? ($10-15?)

[fastpat]

Yep, that wolf stuff, too dangerous to shoot or even garage sale..... that's why I've offered WADS (Wolf Ammo Disposal Service). Send it to my WADS center for safe disposal so you don't have to worry about having a primer dropped on your toe, etc.

Seriously, I'll buy any grendel wolf, even SPT. I paid $9 per box new for most of my wolf, so I'll pay $5/box for any old "bad" Wolf. Just as a service to the Grendel community, you know.

I'm also recycling those horrible C-Product grendel mags for $3 each. And contact me if you need to get rid of one of your AA Barrels with the sloppily inaccurate .300 neck.

Our operators are standing by for your call!

I'm ready to open a South Carolina branch of WADS, anything to help out.

[Rambozo]

The wolf just seems to be softer brass for one. I've had these sorts of problems with it before. Things like extractor marksreally just seem to be a characteristic of the soft brass, not necessarily high pressure. Blown primers on the other hand, I believe to be due to pressure. This happens to me when I go too high on pressure. There has been at least one time that I loaded something up hot enough that it would do that. It's done it to me with the wolf factory aswell, but that was due to my throat length, and the fact that the wolf jams so far into the lands. I always re-seat the wolf to shoot out of my LW barrel. Seating them further in the case solved that problem for me. But primer pockets do seem to open up on the wolf after a couple of firings anyway.

Having said that, it can still be consistent shooting. In fact, my current load prefers it to the Lapua. I think it's more a matter of case volume. I would probably just have to tweak the charge for the lapua brass.

[pinzgauer]

It's done it to me with the wolf factory aswell, but that was due to my throat length, and the fact that the wolf jams so far into the lands. I always re-seat the wolf to shoot out of my LW barrel.

Just curious, did you specific tighter headspace or different throat with the LW barrel? Or was this just luck of the draw? Do you have the same issue with Hornady Factory ammo? Also, was this the 123 or 120 MPT Wolf?

Also curious if you saw pierced primers, or just loosened primers with gas leaks when you had the high pressure from the short LW throat. Blown primers can mean different things. If you had a pierced primer I'm surprised you did not have bolt damage or other issues.

Every time I get interested in trying a LW barrel I hear about another problem due to chamber/throat variances that I've simply not see with standard grendels. (Both from AA & JT)

I guess I'll wait and see what the CHF barrel AA is producing looks like.

[Rambozo]

Just curious, did you specific tighter headspace or different throat with the LW barrel?

No, it's just the standard chamber they do. It's an older barrel, from before the Hornady ammunition came out. I haven't even tried to feed any hornady through it. In fact, Wolf was really the only factory stuff I ever put through it. I don't remember if I ever even shot the AA stuff out of it. I've just been shooting up the wolf I had an been reloading.

My Shaw barrel is less of a picky eater, and seems more reliable. The LW has a pretty darn short throat. If I remember correctly, the wolf 120mpt seats about .090 into the lands. That's if I remember correctly. A primer actually jammed my carrier by getting wedged against the key before. That was a pain in the ass to fix. It's not a gas problem, because otherwise, the barrel gets less gas than my Shaw. I know that because I've encountered short stroking on loads with it that I didn't experience with the shaw.

Really though, I'm not complaining. The barrel shoots really well.

[jwilson1985]

+1 what i was thinking

Could also be an over gassed gun. I had similar problems until I put a an adjustable gas block on my Grendel.

The dirty cases might be a clue that it's over gassed too. The bolt may be opening when the pressure is too high, causing extractor marks and allowing primers to back out. The gas blows by and get the cases dirty.

RR

[FirstTenor]

About 20 years ago, I bought a quantity of 6.5x55 mm Sweedish Mauser ammo from Prvi Partizan, who I understand makes this Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammo. I've been taken somewhat by surprise on seeing that I had identical results; although none of the primers were blown, all of them were flattened out identically to the ones in this picture. However, the brass didn't "stick" when I tried to extract and I didn't see any other obvious signs of over-pressure. When I re-sized the brass, I was amazed at how much I had to trim. I ended up using Remington brass form my loads -- I'm sort of scared of reloading that brass.

[Bronz]

I would say most of the high end ammo with 70 and 77gr. bullets in .223 that I have bought have flattened primers like those but not the extractor marks.

[QuadCam]

I'm still trying to diagnose what the problem is with my grendel. Since I originally posted this, I have tried adjusting the gas system. Even with the gas system turned down to just make the rifle cycle, I am still seeing ejector and extractor marks on my brass.

So, I decided to look a little deeper today as I was thinking about loading up about 50 rounds for the range. In doing so, I decided to check things out with some factory Hornady 123 Amax ammo. I have had issues with this ammo (unfired) sticking in my chamber. If I loaded this ammo into my rifle, it would often times not be able to be extracted without having to "mortar" the rifle. (this didn't make me too pleased.) If fired, the cartridge would extract without any issues. The upper has been sent to AA twice to fix this issue, but it still exists. I had just resolved myself to living with it, but then I noticed something today.

Today, I chambered a factory Amax round and was able to extact with medium effort by yanking hard on the charging handle. I then examined the bullet and noticed a "ring" around the bullet about .070" infront of the case mouth. IS this the bullet hitting the lands? So then, I pulled the BCG and manually put another hornady round into the chamber and pushed it into place with a dowel...and then had to remove it by pushing it out with a dowel too... that cartridge also showed a lighter ring that the previous cartridge, but it was still there. SO then, I pulled out a factory Wolf 120MPT round and fed it into the chamber and extracted it. It also just just a bit of a chamber (???) mark.

Am I wrong in assuming that these are marks from the bullets seating into the lands and that my grendel barrel has a improperly short throat? and this is the reason for the pressure signs (extractor and ejector marks) and blown primers that I have previously posted.

Here's a shot of the Hornady loaded and extracted via the BCG:



Here's the Hornady that was inserted and extracted via a dowel:



Finally, here's the wolf that was loaded and extracted via the BCG: