Hornady American Gunner compaired against Hornady Black

[Sticks]

Thank you.

Looks like it will probably be 2450 out of my 18 then. A touch slower than Black. I picked up 4 boxes of it today, will do a side by side soon.

[NugginFutz]

Hornady American Gunner and Hornady Black Comparison Continued...

Well, today I made it to the range with three different rifles and two different types of Factory Hornady 6.5 Grendel ammunition. Two BHW’s and one Larue, with the Hornady Black and newly procured American Gunner.

The morning was absolutely gorgeous. Temperatures were in the low 70’s with a very light 1-5 mph cross wind. Station pressure was 24.187 “Hg (5932 ‘ASL).

For this outing, I was shooting for speed over the chronograph, group sizes, and estimated bullet drop in order to approximate the 123 BTHP’s BC.

Each rifle was strapped into a Lead Sled DFT, weighted with 40 lbs of lead for stability.

I then zeroed the scopes at 100 yards, using the American Gunner, followed by five shots each of American Gunner (AG) and of Black (BK) over the chronograph and for groups. The chronograph was at a measured 10’ from the muzzle.

First up was the 18” BHW, in 264 LBC with a 1:8 twist, standard profile barrel. This rifle was built as a medium weight “walk about” gun, and so sports nothing serious in the way of optics. (3-9x40 Crossfire II).

Next was my new Larue 18” 6.5 Grendel Ultimate Upper with an Aero Precision Lower. Complete with all the bits from Larue, this rifle sports a Vortex Viper HST, 4-16x44 SFP. This is my first SAAMI 6.5 Grendel, and am still breaking it in. Interestingly, this barrel is running faster than I expected, now that a few rounds have gone down the pipe. (More later).

Finally, I ran my 22” BHW heavy barreled table topper, with Magpul PRS, and a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50, SFP. This rifle is also a 264 LBC, with a 1:9 twist. It has been built specifically with long range in mind.

Following are the chronograph results:

18" BHW	1	2	3	4	5	Avg	SD	ES
AG	2347	2359	2387	2382	2361	2367	16.8	40
BK	2401	2386	2392	2407	2404	2398	8.7	21
18" Larue
AG	2465	2488	2476	2482	2480	2478	8.6	23
BK	2465	2486	2491	2468	2491	2480	12.7	26
22" BHW
AG	2484	2485	2477	2452	2483	2476	13.9	33
BK	2471	2478	2491	2457	2474	2474	12.3	34

It was no small surprise to me that the 18” Larue ran neck and neck with the 22” BHW for both the American Gunner and the Black ammunition. A month ago, when I first shot the Hornady Black through these two weapons, I had then noted how close their respective velocities were (2483 for Larue and 2510, for BHW). The BHW has consistently run faster than most 22’s, so it makes me wonder what Mark’s secret sauce is. (I do know that it isn’t a “Jam in the Lands” over pressured chamber. Both the Black and the American Gunner easily drop in and fall back out of the chamber without sticking.)

Next, I have the groups from each. All targets were at a Lasered 100 yards from the bench.

The two 18” barreled rifles were only so-so. While I can’t really say I expected much from the Crossfire equipped BHW, I was hoping for more from the Larue with the HST. Again, this rifle is in mid break-in, and the groups do seem to be shrinking,

Below is the 18” BHW


Groups measure at 1.45” for the AG and 2.24” for the Black. (1.15”, w/o the flyer)


Here is the 18” Larue

Groups are 1.68” for the AG (0.76”, w/o the flyer) and 1.68 “ for the Black.


The 22” BHW, on the other hand, eats these things like candy.


The two groups at right were shot first. After seeing the BK group, I thought I might be able to do better with the AG, so a second group was shot. I was rewarded with the group seen at left.

The best groups shot were measured at .736” for the Hornady Black, followed by a .646” for the American Gunner. These translate to a corrected .472” group for the AG and a .382” group for the BK.

The last thing I did was to attempt to approximate the BC of this new 123 grain BTHP.
This range is equipped with a set of plates at 750 yards, so I used these to evaluate the American Gunner’s performance.




I shot 3 baseline rounds of the Black, using the Ballistic AE app’s suggested holdover of 6.7 Mils, with a .4 mil wind hold. Happily, they impacted right where the app said they should. (POA = POI !!)

Next, I sent 3 rounds of the AG. All were centered, but low by .4 mils. Cranking in the .4 mil correction, I shot 3 more and these impacted within inches of the previous ELD’s from the BK.

With this information, I plugged in the data and began adjusting the BC downward until I got the same 7.1 mil hold, which turns out to be 0.460 for the conditions at the time.

While the BC is obviously less than the 123 ELD’s 0.506, the BTHP's estimated 0.460 is good enough to stay supersonic until 1154 yards at this altitude, and until a very respectable 958 yards at seal level.

So, in summary, both the Hornady Blacks and American Gunners deliver very similar velocities from each of the test rifles I employed.
Group sizes are definitely dependent on hardware. My take is that with junk optics, you get what you would expect. My eyesight is not what it used to be, and 9x seems like tying one hand behind my back. The green barrel on my Larue is still seasoning, so time will tell.

The main takeaway, however, is that that both the Black and the American Gunner are capable of good accuracy. Terminal performance will need to be evaluated by someone with access to many hogs or blocks of ballistics gel, neither of which are available to me, at present.

For my part, I now have one rifle where reloading no longer makes any sense to me. At the cost American Gunner ammo is available, I can load only marginally less expensive, and I would be very hard pressed to get anything more accurate.

Thanks for reading.

[bfk4lyfe]

Awesome thanks!

[Sticks]

Awesome thanks!

X2. Thank you NugginFutz. Excellent writeup, answered many a question I had in mind. My Barlitien barrel speeds are on par with your Larue, so I have a good baseline to work with. The BC seems a bit low for a HPBT bullet - yet your numbers put it on the mark.

I can not locate a Hornady HPBT, so who knows who, or what they are using. ELD/SST Seconds before tip machining? If it's Sierra, then their SMK is exaggerated at a G! of .510 - unless you need to factor the BC at the range you are shooting and do the math. IceAxe has a Lab Radar, wonder if he could get it to factor the BC for us?

[Lone Hunter]

Thanks for the write up. Good way to get brass cheap also. I've noticied my BHW is faster also. Looking to get another one soon.

[LRRPF52]

Great review NugginFutz.

I just got back from being at the range all day as well and shot a lot of this through my Howa 22", LaRue 18", and Lilja 318 build.



I left the Burris 1.5-6x on the LaRue to see what I can squeeze out of it for a hunting scope. I'm thinking about putting it on one of the 16" Grendels for a lightweight hunter.

This is what the reticle looks like, not exactly for precision work but a great practical hunting scope.



This is the best group I got with American Gunner and that set-up today. You can also see the 1.091" group. The only thing I care about with this ammo is that it hits steel plates at distance, so today's range session was more of a chore than anything else. I really don't like shooting at 100-200yds. The benches are built into cages for each lane, and aren't exactly that stable. Every time someone else shoots or bumps the cage, it moves you.



Here are the speeds I got with the LaRue 18" Stealth 2.0 and 123gr American Gunner from Hornady that I bought for 55 cents per:

Temp: 60˚F range thermometer, beautiful day
2436
2406
2463
2479
2465

2441
2438
2428
2446
2439

2444fps average

This 123gr BTHP is Hornady's own bullet. The meplats don't match up with tipless ELD-Ms, so they just made their own BTHP and loaded it as a more affordable option for many popular cartridges in the American Gunner line.

[VASCAR2]

From the pictures I thought the Hornady 123 grain BTHP resembles the Nosler 123 Custom Competition bullet shape more than any other 123 match bullets I’ve seen.

[LRRPF52]

If you take a 123gr Nosler CC and look at it, it has a more tangent ogive, but a much longer boat tail like a 123gr Sierra.

This Hornady 123gr BTHP has a typical AMAX-like boat tail, with a more streamlined ogive and a somewhat large meplat. It's clearly a Hornady bullet that isn't in their catalog.

[Sticks]

This is the best group I got with American Gunner and that set-up today. You can also see the 1.091" group. The only thing I care about with this ammo is that it hits steel plates at distance, so today's range session was more of a chore than anything else. I really don't like shooting at 100-200yds. The benches are built into cages for each lane, and aren't exactly that stable. Every time someone else shoots or bumps the cage, it moves you.


Here are the speeds I got with the LaRue 18" Stealth 2.0 and 123gr American Gunner from Hornady that I bought for 55 cents per:

Temp: 60˚F range thermometer, beautiful day
2436
2406
2463
2479
2465

2441
2438
2428
2446
2439

2444fps average

This 123gr BTHP is Hornady's own bullet. The meplats don't match up with tipless ELD-Ms, so they just made their own BTHP and loaded it as a more affordable option for many popular cartridges in the American Gunner line.

How does that compare speed wise to Hornady 123eld out of your Larue, and what were you getting out of your Howa (IIRC you brought that along as well)?

[LRRPF52]

How does that compare speed wise to Hornady 123eld out of your Larue, and what were you getting out of your Howa (IIRC you brought that along as well)?

I still haven't chronographed the ELD-M. I shot it at 200yds though with the same 1.5-6x scope. Vertical was .5", horizontal was 2.438". I could barely see the boxes on the targets with that scope and my aging eyes. Perfect for deer vital zone though.

I posted Howa velocities in the Howa thread in bolt guns. Tracks right along with what I expected, although the American Gunner was about the same speed as an 18" AR15, which is odd.

I checked a guy's 16" AR15 next to me just for fun to show them what speeds they were getting with 55gr UMC, so their 2950fps average made sense, nothing wring with the chrono. I shot a lot of loads over the chrono yesterday.

[davidj]

Well, today I made it to the range with three different rifles and two different types of Factory Hornady 6.5 Grendel ammunition. Two BHW’s and one Larue, with the Hornady Black and newly procured American Gunner.
.

Is that ZIA?

[Texas]

Nugginfutz, thank you for the work you have put into this so far - excellent analysis well written.

I is amazing how time seems to get consumed with family and special projects when one is "retired".

[NugginFutz]

Is that ZIA?

No, Dave. That is Abq Shooting Park, AKA "the City Range".

[davidj]

No, Dave. That is Abq Shooting Park, AKA "the City Range".

Never been to the rifle ranges out there.

[NugginFutz]

Well, this just in!

A member on another board took the initiative and called Hornady directly to inquire about the BC of the 123 BTHP loaded in the American Gunner Grendel ammo. He says they did him a solid and ran it over their doppler. They came back with a .450 G1 and .225 G7 BC.

Not as good as I'd calculated, but it certainly will help with the drop charts to have accurate information.