Which is better for accuracy, consistancy and speed? Stick or Ball powder

[Sticks]

I keep tripping over posts of people using stick powder as their preferred LR target load for the accuracy and consistency.

I'd try some, but I don't know if I would be chasing ghosts with it. I compete out to 1k yards, and use Hornady 123 ELD and am trying Nosler 130 RDF.

Recommendations, or stick with CFE and AA2250?

[1Shot]

I don't know about with the Grendel because I will be shooting my first reloads in 6.5 Grendel today but I have been handloading for 40+ years. I have always had better accuracy with stick powders than ball. But with the Grendel it seems that ball powders we have these days will get you more velocity and the SD is also pretty low and they handle temperature changes better. The older ball powders like W748 that I have worked with really have temperature problems. Work up a load when it is in the 60 to 80* range and all is fine then when it gets to the 90* range pressure has gotten dangerous. Then you have to through in the variable of what your rifle likes best. It can get a little madding in the quest for accuracy. Shoot straight and shoot often and have fun.

[LR1955]

I keep tripping over posts of people using stick powder as their preferred LR target load for the accuracy and consistency.

I'd try some, but I don't know if I would be chasing ghosts with it. I compete out to 1k yards, and use Hornady 123 ELD and am trying Nosler 130 RDF.

Recommendations, or stick with CFE and AA2250?

Sticks:

Most competitive shooters these days use a extruded powder. Like 1 shot mentions, the ball powders seem to be more sensitive to conditions. However, the old TAC of about 20 years ago was so good that we used it quite a bit in long range shooting because we didn't have to weigh out each charge. Something happened to TAC so we stopped using it. Big advantage of ball powders is their ability to meter so well that one saves a lot of time reloading and has more time to shoot. One is wasting their time measuring out individual charges with ball powders for anything up to 30-06 in my view. Just not that much variance in charge weights.

Not sure what is in vogue these days but I have been shooting Varget for many years in everything from 6 BR through .308. H-4350 for things like 6 X 47 and 6 XC. I think these two powders are about the best for almost anything short of the big magnums. Except for the Grendel which won't get velocity from them.

LR55

[Arkhangel5]

Extruded. Any extruded powder that claims temperature insensitivity would be my first choice for competitive shooting.

In shooting extended strings of fire(20+), I want my last shot to perform the same as shot#1. In my experience, you only get that from extruded temp insensitive powders.

An example using TAC in F-class shooting out to 600yds. After 2 sighters, I start shooting for score, holds X-ring, by shot #15 my point of impact is climbing to the top of 10-ring(6in circle). Without an adjustment to the scope, by shot #20 I would be over the 10 ring, reason, my barrel is now smoking hot pushing these rounds downrange. This is where powders like Varget, H4350 and similar shine.

This why IMR8208 is my preferred powder for the Grendel. I would rather give up a few fps to retain shot to shot consistency and accuracy.

SY

[centerfire]

The only ball powder I load is W844 pull down I use in milsurp blaster ammo.

[LR1955]

Extruded. Any extruded powder that claims temperature insensitivity would be my first choice for competitive shooting.

In shooting extended strings of fire(20+), I want my last shot to perform the same as shot#1. In my experience, you only get that from extruded temp insensitive powders.

An example using TAC in F-class shooting out to 600yds. After 2 sighters, I start shooting for score, holds X-ring, by shot #15 my point of impact is climbing to the top of 10-ring(6in circle). Without an adjustment to the scope, by shot #20 I would be over the 10 ring, reason, my barrel is now smoking hot pushing these rounds downrange. This is where powders like Varget, H4350 and similar shine.

This why IMR8208 is my preferred powder for the Grendel. I would rather give up a few fps to retain shot to shot consistency and accuracy.

SY

AA5:

Your barrel isn't smoking hot shooting an extruded powder? Mine sure are after 20+ shots and our time limits are the same.

You mean TAC produces that much more heat than Varget etc?

I haven't shot TAC competitively since they seemed to change its composition many years ago but don't recall thinking it made a barrel any hotter than an extruded powder.

You aren't the only F Class guy I have heard from who complains of high shots as their string goes along. I think most of it is barrel and down range mirage but something must happen when the metal in a barrel gets that hot, too.

LR55

[Arkhangel5]

LR,
What I meant was I don't have the vertical stringing with extruded temp insensitive powders ie Varget, that I do with ball powders ie TAC.

I just used my personal experience as an example of what goes on with temp sensitive powder.

Barrel was just as smoking after 20+ rounds of Varget rounds as with TAC, diff being Varget reacts less to the temp swing than TAC.

Hope that makes more sense.

SY

[Klem]

I don't think you can generalize powders into being more or less accurate across all guns. In your gun however, with a particular bullet different powders are going to yield different group sizes and obviously you want this to be as small as possible. Plus, you want as little change as possible as the temperature changes and the gun fouls. Consistency is about maintaining that group size and Mean Point of Impact (MPI) over time. Speed...double-based powders are more energetic than single-based so are a better choice for velocity.

Modern small arms powders are either single or double based.

Single-based (SB) are nitrocellulose only with coatings to help meter and control the burn rate, plus additives like stabilisers. Double-based (DB) are nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine with coatings and stabilisers. SB powders are more temp insensitive than DB, they burn cleaner and have longer shelf lives. Both SB and DB can be extruded however ball powder will be DB.

The powders mentioned; H4350, Varget and IMR8208 are single-based. TAC and W844 are double-based.

Double-based are more energetic but burn hotter, dirtier and with more flash than SB. Triple-based (+nitroguanidine) which reduces the heat and flash is no longer available for small arms.

Other relevant Grendel powders; H4895 is single-based. CFE223 is double-based.

Whether it is extruded or ball is not really why it is temperature sensitive or faster. It is more to do with the chemical composition of the powder and that means identifying whether it is DB or SB. Sure, how it is then cut influences burning rate but it is also cut to influence how it meters through machinery. For high speed loading machines (e.g. for military), progressive presses and powder throwers ball powder works well whereas extruded can be a disadvantage. Graphite is coated on powders to help them meter and not bind but still the size of the flake/disk/stick can be a loading issue. For weighing scales and tricklers both extruded and ball powder is fine.

If you use a DB powder as long as you re-zero the gun as the temp changes, or vary the amount of powder to chase the same MPI then temp sensitivity should be a non issue. And this is only relevant if your definition of accuracy is like SY's above where he is talking about a predictable 0.5MOA shift in MPI as his barrel heats up. For the military, their definition of accuracy is MOM (Minute of Man) so changes in MPI are moot, unless of course your role is a marksman. For them SB powder is sometimes used.

The Precision Rife Blog quoting Brian Litz lists the following;
-Good Double-Base Powders: 1 fps per degree Fahrenheit
-Average Single Base Powders: 0.3-0.5 fps per degree Fahrenheit
-Best Single Base Powders: 0.1-0.2 fps per degree Fahrenheit

This is the effect on internal ballistics due to temperature change. Don't forget that as temperature changes so does external ballistics as well. It is less than the effect of temp on internal ballistics but still worth considering (ballistics programs adjust for this).

Both types of powder have their advantages and disadvantages but if your main criterion is precision then whichever works best in your rifle would be my advice.

[kiwi shooter]

Never noticed any difference really I use cfe223 in the grendel and w760/h414 in the 260rem
Both ball powder
But I have used stick powder from time to time

[RiverRider]

When a chamber gets hot, its heat will quickly conduct into the powder charge and affect its burn rate.

I do not know which compound shown in Alliant's SDS Alliant is responsible for the enhanced temperature tolerance with some of its newer powders like Re16, Re26, Re23, and AR-Comp, but these are double-based powders that have demonstrated much improved and very good temperature tolerance.

[Trueblue]

I don't think you can generalize powders into being more or less accurate across all guns. In your gun however, with a particular bullet different powders are going to yield different group sizes and obviously you want this to be as small as possible. Plus, you want as little change as possible as the temperature changes and the gun fouls. Consistency is about maintaining that group size and Mean Point of Impact (MPI) over time. Speed...double-based powders are more energetic than single-based so are a better choice for velocity.

Modern small arms powders are either single or double based.

Single-based (SB) are nitrocellulose only with coatings to help meter and control the burn rate, plus additives like stabilisers. Double-based (DB) are nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine with coatings and stabilisers. SB powders are more temp insensitive than DB, they burn cleaner and have longer shelf lives. Both SB and DB can be extruded however ball powder will be DB.

The powders mentioned; H4350, Varget and IMR8208 are single-based. TAC and W844 are double-based.

Double-based are more energetic but burn hotter, dirtier and with more flash than SB. Triple-based (+nitroguanidine) which reduces the heat and flash is no longer available for small arms.

Other relevant Grendel powders; H4895 is single-based. CFE223 is double-based.

Whether it is extruded or ball is not really why it is temperature sensitive or faster. It is more to do with the chemical composition of the powder and that means identifying whether it is DB or SB. Sure, how it is then cut influences burning rate but it is also cut to influence how it meters through machinery. For high speed loading machines (e.g. for military), progressive presses and powder throwers ball powder works well whereas extruded can be a disadvantage. Graphite is coated on powders to help them meter and not bind but still the size of the flake/disk/stick can be a loading issue. For weighing scales and tricklers both extruded and ball powder is fine.

If you use a DB powder as long as you re-zero the gun as the temp changes, or vary the amount of powder to chase the same MPI then temp sensitivity should be a non issue. And this is only relevant if your definition of accuracy is like SY's above where he is talking about a predictable 0.5MOA shift in MPI as his barrel heats up. For the military, their definition of accuracy is MOM (Minute of Man) so changes in MPI are moot, unless of course your role is a marksman. For them SB powder is sometimes used.

The Precision Rife Blog quoting Brian Litz lists the following;
-Good Double-Base Powders: 1 fps per degree Fahrenheit
-Average Single Base Powders: 0.3-0.5 fps per degree Fahrenheit
-Best Single Base Powders: 0.1-0.2 fps per degree Fahrenheit

This is the effect on internal ballistics due to temperature change. Don't forget that as temperature changes so does external ballistics as well. It is less than the effect of temp on internal ballistics but still worth considering (ballistics programs adjust for this).

Both types of powder have their advantages and disadvantages but if your main criterion is precision then whichever works best in your rifle would be my advice.

So, using a Dillon 550 progressive press, you would want to use Tac, CFE 223 for better metering?

[Kswhitetails]

Using a Dillon and loading for any kind of ranged accuracy, I would throw the charges and seat off-press. Nothing against Dilly's progressive powder drop or indexing shell plates, but they were never intended to be precision equipment. If you're looking for >200 yard blaster ammo, then bangarang jack!

For the purposes of this post, "precision" is measured in the ten thousandths. Hard to accomplish with any repeatability on Dillon when the shell plate by design needs 1-3 thousandths "slop" to index reliably. Even harder when the case can travel in the holder during indexing 1-7 thousandths on my machine...

[Klem]

So, using a Dillon 550 progressive press, you would want to use Tac, CFE 223 for better metering?

I use a progressive press for handgun and a single-stage for rifle loading. If I were to use a progressive for rifle it would be for short range, high volume plinking only. With such a low expectation of precision any powder metered through the press would suit.

[LR1955]

So, using a Dillon 550 progressive press, you would want to use Tac, CFE 223 for better metering?

TB:

Dillon used to recommend using ball powders instead of extruded powders. Any ball powder will, almost certainly, meter more smoothly and accurately through any powder measure than an extruded powder.

If I were loading using a Dillon powder measure, I would prefer to use ball powder over an extruded/

LR55

[Joseph5]

I have loaded 5.56 and Grendel on a Dillon 550 and get MOA accuracy with it. That is good enough for me.