Optimal 1,000 yard bullet

[Triticum]

I'm building a 22" Criterion barreled AR-15 in 6.5G with the intent of shooting steel at 1,000 yards with it. What is everyone's opinion on the optimal bullet for 1,000 yard shots? I've been crunching numbers like crazy and reading everything I can, but its hard to make a decision. The RDF 130 gr looks fantastic on ballistic calcs, but I understand people are having difficulty getting them to shoot well, possibly due to magazine length limitations. The 123 gr scenars sound good, but they are expensive. I'll pay the price if they are worth it though. The 130 grain ELD-Ms also sound good too and are more reasonably priced.

So what's everyone's go to load for a 1,000 yard shot out of an AR? Thanks in advance!

[mongoosesnipe]

several people have ha good luck with the 108 scenars but that wont be any cheaper, you are probably going to want to try multiple bullets and loads run each load through a balistic app with chrono data and go from there and start with the cheapest bullet and go up in price if needed

[A5BLASTER]

Take this as it is but when I take my 18 inch barrels to 900 yards the 129 ablr does the best as far as getting on steel for me.

Haven't tryed the scenars but what I have read and seen posted they are some of the best for going long.

With a 22 inch barrel my thinking tells me pic the bullet with the highest bc that is short enough to not jam the lands and eat up case capacity matched with the right powder ofcourse.

I think the 129ablr and 130 vldtarget has the highest bc in bullets for the grendel.

PF has both of those in 50 round box's in stock right now.

[VASCAR2]

[LRRPF52]

Welcome to the forum.

When looking at 123gr bullets:

123gr Lapua Scenar
123gr Sierra Match King
123gr Hornady ELD-M

For 130gr class:

130gr Nosler RDF
130gr Berger VLD
130gr Norma Golden Target
130gr Berger OTM Hybrid
130gr Hornady ELD-M
129gr Nosler ABLR

For lighter bullets, the 107gr SMK and newer 107gr TMK might be worth looking at too. You can make up for some wind with speed.

The main reasons why BC are so important are 1) dealing with the wind and 2) staying supersonic.

The question is, would you rather have a bullet with a higher BC that you can only get to hold 1.2-1.5 MOA (12"-15" at 1k), or a bullet with a lower BC that holds .75 MOA? The wind will make that decision for you when you get to the range.

Next question is, do you want more trigger time with a decent bullet, or less trigger time with a superb bullet?

Also, depending on the wind conditions, even a 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington, 6.5x284, or 6mm variant stops being an effective 1000yd cartridge once the wind pushes into certain parameters. What I've seen over the years in difficult, high speed, and shifting wind conditions, is that the faster 6.5mms remain effective out to about 800yds before they no longer enjoy sufficient hit probability on 18" targets even.

If you're shooting for groups on paper bulls in the pits at 1000yds, then the precision of the load/barrel will be the main factors, on top of solid fundamentals.

If you enjoy hitting plates at varying distances with a lot of TGT-to-TGT transitions, then another bullet like the 130gr RDF might make more sense.

For trigger time, the cheaper-but-reputable bullets sell themselves really well. I've had unexpectedly-good results with 123gr A-MAX at 1000yds from 16" and 18" Grendels (at 4400-6600ft elevation).

It's all about the wind.

[Triticum]

Thanks for everyone's responses! I greatly appreciate the input.

To answer some of the questions you had, I am at 2400' ASL and I have a 20 MOA base on my rifle so I should have enough elevation to get to 1,000 yards without too much problem. I'm fortunate to have a 1200 yard range on the back side of my farm, one of the advantages of being a farmer, so I can get out to shoot as often as I like. I've got a 6.5 Creed that I've shoot fairly regularly at 1000+ yards, so I'm quite familiar with the difficulties that wind can bring. I'm in total agreement with you LRRPF52, it is all about the wind. For this reason I've been dropping numbers into JBM's ballistics calculator and mainly focusing on the wind drift of various bullets. This is where the 130 RDF really seems to stand out above the rest. If it doesn't shoot well out of an AR though, it doesn't really matter.

I've had good luck with the 140 gr ELD-M in my 6.5 Creed, so maybe I'll start with the 130 gr ELD-M since they are reasonably priced and see how I can get them to shoot. Now I just have to find some somewhere!

[Kswhitetails]

LRRPF- would you consider the Norma GT in the 130 class?

[Sticks]

I was going to mention the Norma 130s, not sure if anyone has run them.

I have had better luck with the 130 ELDs over the 130 RDF in startup load testing in my Howa. Much better. I am loading long however (2.32 COAL - significantly more powder) trying to find some food for my Horde (GF , her two daughters and mine). Then I will start playing for AR food.

I remember running numbers on the 107/108 class against the 123 on book velocities and the lighter ones won out, but seeing and hearing the impact on steel at 800+ was the question.

The other side of the equation is a heavy bullet plodding along at 2200fps from the muzzle.

There is another member who is in time out right now that was having excellent results with one bullet on load workup, but accuracy went to crap at longer ranges for whatever reason so he dropped it from consideration. That is the other thing that needs to be verified when a selection is made.

[Kswhitetails]

I've got 500 on the way for my creed, so I'm planning on setting aside some for testing. I just got by lab too so that should drastically assist in my data gathering and analysis. I really hope the 130s do well, that'd make a pretty dang cool thing, getting 1000 at a time for both rifles to plinky with, and getting good results from both. It'll be slow, but not any slower than the other 130s, and I was hitting at 1000 regular a few weeks ago with the federal 130 berger GMM loads.

[LRRPF52]

LRRPF- would you consider the Norma GT in the 130 class?

I knew I forgot something. Yes.

There are others too. A friend of mine is working with the G9 103gr solids. Someone here did a test with them and felt the BC didn't match up at 600yds, so we'll see.

[LR1955]

Thanks for everyone's responses! I greatly appreciate the input.

To answer some of the questions you had, I am at 2400' ASL and I have a 20 MOA base on my rifle so I should have enough elevation to get to 1,000 yards without too much problem. I'm fortunate to have a 1200 yard range on the back side of my farm, one of the advantages of being a farmer, so I can get out to shoot as often as I like. I've got a 6.5 Creed that I've shoot fairly regularly at 1000+ yards, so I'm quite familiar with the difficulties that wind can bring. I'm in total agreement with you LRRPF52, it is all about the wind. For this reason I've been dropping numbers into JBM's ballistics calculator and mainly focusing on the wind drift of various bullets. This is where the 130 RDF really seems to stand out above the rest. If it doesn't shoot well out of an AR though, it doesn't really matter.

I've had good luck with the 140 gr ELD-M in my 6.5 Creed, so maybe I'll start with the 130 gr ELD-M since they are reasonably priced and see how I can get them to shoot. Now I just have to find some somewhere!

TT:

Palouse? Sounds like it. The 2400 feet won't give the advantage to the Grendel that 5K plus feet will. In fact, if you went from a zero at sea level to the Palouse you wouldn't see a difference in elevation that you could definitely attribute to going up 2400 feet.

What to decide on for a bullet? I would choose one each 123 grain, 130 grain, and 108 or 107 grain bullet based on my own likes and prejudices and test each one at 300. The two bullets that either flat lined or came the closest at 300, would be shot at 600 for score or group. Which ever one shot I shot the higher score would be my choice for farther distances.

If you want to shoot a 140, go for it but I think most of us probably wouldn't because it really does take up a lot of powder space.

If you are shooting in deal calm, your scores and X count will be lower than a 6.5 Creedmoor but not by a huge amount. If you have typical Palouse winds, it will be lower by a huge amount.

LR55

[Triticum]

TT:

Palouse? Sounds like it. The 2400 feet won't give the advantage to the Grendel that 5K plus feet will. In fact, if you went from a zero at sea level to the Palouse you wouldn't see a difference in elevation that you could definitely attribute to going up 2400 feet.

What to decide on for a bullet? I would choose one each 123 grain, 130 grain, and 108 or 107 grain bullet based on my own likes and prejudices and test each one at 300. The two bullets that either flat lined or came the closest at 300, would be shot at 600 for score or group. Which ever one shot I shot the higher score would be my choice for farther distances.

If you want to shoot a 140, go for it but I think most of us probably wouldn't because it really does take up a lot of powder space.

If you are shooting in deal calm, your scores and X count will be lower than a 6.5 Creedmoor but not by a huge amount. If you have typical Palouse winds, it will be lower by a huge amount.

LR55

Lol, I wish I was in the Palouse, their yields are 50-100% higher than what I get, not sure I'd like the hills though. I'm about 2 hours NW of the Palouse. We still have some hills, but nothing like what they have there.

130 grains is probably as high as I'm going to go with the 6.5G. Like you said, the 140 grain pills are just going to take up too much case volume. I'll probably give the 123 Scenars and the 130 grain ELD-Ms a try and see which my rifle likes more.

[Gusmeister]

This is a heck of a place for my first posting on this forum. Been absorbing your information for over a year now but today I have something to offer. I have been shooting my 6.5 Grendel AR (20" Odin Works bbl) for a year now. Finally started reaching out to 1,000 yards this May. The reloads were with IMR 8208 and 123gr Hornady ELD bullets with a MV slightly over 2,500 fps. Elevation is about 500 ft. Out to 700 yards this was a 1-1.5 MOA load. I am a 1-1.5 MOA shooter on demand. Not a target shooter at all. But when shooting at 1,000 yards (actually 1,025 yards) the groups were opening up to 2.0 MOA and above and sometimes erratic. The bullet was dropping way beyond the tables as well. Yes, this is about where the ELD bullet was smacking into the transonic zone. But there was more. The bullets were entering the paper showing a lot of wobble. Pics attached. This did not happen at 700 yards and less (no target stands between 700 and 1,000 yards at my range).


After a lot of research (much on this wonderful forum) it seemed my wobble problem was more related to bullet spin/stability than any other factor. So I went to the Sierra 107 gr OTM bullet. Turns out it is slightly longer than the 123gr ELD. The load worked up with IMR 8208 came to about 2,650 fps. My guess was the extra spin rate would settle the bullet. Just a guess though. The 107 gr Sierra's do not shoot better than the 123gr ELD's out to 700 yards. But... they do not show any wobble when hitting paper at a measured 1,025 yards. Pic attached and you can see the average group size came down to 1.5 MOA in a light breeze. I think this long range bullet stability issue varies by altitude. 500 ft above sea level is pretty thick air. Anyway... hope this helps some.

I've been reloading for 48 years but only a little over a year for the Grendel. It is a wonderful cartridge my any measure.

[VASCAR2]

Welcome to the forum Gusmeister and thanks for posting. I've notice when I use Ballistic Calculators with G-1 I get more drop past 800 yards than indicated by the Ballistic Calculator. I normally shoot at approximately 450' ASL but I did shoot at 1000 yards at 7200' ASL when in Wyoming. I didn't notice much deviation from what the Ballistic Computer predicted at 7200' with my 20" 6.5 Grendel with 123 grain Nosler CC. We were using Sierra Infinity program and plugged in the atmospheric conditions. A Friend had his lap top computer running Infinity and I'm not sure if he used G-1 or G-7.



When I shoot at home I have used ballistic data derived from using G-1 BC. Were you using G-1 BC on your app or G-7 which is supposed to be better suited for longer distances?

[Gusmeister]

Thank you Vascar. I was using the Hornady ballistic program set to the G1. When I started using the 107 gr bullet it did track with the G1 ballistic program at 1,000 yards where the 123gr ELD did not. I'm still pretty new to this 1,000 yard stuff but that's my experience so far.