What might have happened...

[cwlongshot]

I have started this as a continued discussion on the "performance" of the 120 Gold Dot bullet from my previous posting.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?18440-My-best-buck-came-this-year

This hasn't left my head since it happened... I know its all speculation, but educated minds can generally flesh out such things.

I said I though that the bullet greneded, as I had solid waste, mixed with stomach contense inside the diaphragm. (With lungs and heart) The shot was slightly back from center of the lungs, (2" hole was found in onside lung) but angling forward and down. Some damage found "under" the front leg on opposite side. The only way solid waste/guts could get in there would be if some part of the bullet went back there.. I REALLY wish I had taken more time to look for the bullet, but I so seldom DONT GET two holes I simply don't think of it. Remember NO BONES where hit with this bullet, 100% SOFT tissue cause the bullets upsett. I wish I had measured the thickness of the chest cavity with the hide on but it was easily 2"+ thick.

The more I go over this and sleep on it... AND Knowing and trusting the Gold Dot line for so many years... AS WELL AS, seeing how specifically they recommend use of the bullet. I am leaning more and more, to the simple fact that the Grendel simply isn't a high horsepower cartridge. (Producing 15-1600 FPE) This was a very large deer at estimated 260+ on the hoof. It weighed 227# after three days hanging. It had a 46" chest. I am not putting it down in any way, just simply this is a larger, tougher and stronger critter than the average (for us) 150# deer.

I am not looking for any arguments on bullet failure or energy dump. I would like to get this out of my head, any talking it out seems to usually work for me. Just looking for educated speculation on what and how may have occurred.

Any and all opinions welcome.

CW

[Bigs28]

I don't understand what the question is. You shot a deer and he died.

[bj139]

IMHO a larger bullet traveling faster would have been better for the more difficult shots through brush and bone, especially on a larger animal.
The 6.5 Grendel works fine, mostly.

[Londerko]

[A5BLASTER]

Reading over how you describe the onside entry wound looked like, I'm wondering if you didn't clip a branch and the bullet was getting deflected or tumbling when it stuck the deer.

For sure it was a big buck but that doesn't really play into it since we now know a 123 eld-m from a 24 inch grendel at 125 yards will almost pass clean throw a moose. And DNS has shown more then a few times a very small 90 grain 6.5 mm bullet can go throw large hogs.

I can tell you a 150 to 200 pound boar hog is harder to get throw broadside then a 200+ whitetail deer.

My theory is you may have clipped a branch in flight and it damaged and deflected the bullet and possible made it start tumbling as it hit the deer and that caused the bullet to exploded.

Just my idea of what might have went down.

[Djgrendel]

I read your original thread shortly after you posted it. I have had some odd things happen with bullets from time to time. 2 deer with 2 different cartridges. One was an average whitetail doe at 85 yards or so. 25-06 and 110 accubond. Broadside and no exit in the hide behind the shoulder in line with the shot. After skinning I found the slug under the offside hide up by the jaw. Penetrated the body but not the hide. Second deer was a huge mule deer buck at approx 150 yards. 270 wsm with 140 accubond. Similar shot placement. Destroyed internals. Yet no exit in the hide. Bullet found after skinning on the offside by its ear, same as the doe. Both bullets were still 60% of original weight. Maybe a rib bone was hit, but not anything heavy. It's been a a few years since, so I don't completely remember exact trauma. Usually those 2 loads blow nice 1" exit holes in everything even if shoulders have been hit at that range. Your result was quite different than mine as far as tracking was concerned. 40 yards is all they made. I can't explain why your result ended the way it did, but sometimes even proven bullets do funny things. I still use the accubond but would not blame you for ditching the gold dot. A larger example size would make up my decision

[bj139]

I was looking around and found this link posted by JASmith on thefiringline.com forum.
Is this the same JASmith who is a member here?

http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-weight/

It says the 120gr bullet is enough.

[cwlongshot]

Thanks guys. I'm simply not a good one for mysteries... I like explanations and answers better.

Still haven't herd back from Speer...

I got in 100 more 150 GD for the 300 AAC along with 100 168g for the 308, yesterday. Along with those came 300 Sierras Pro Hunters in 120G.

CW

[1Shot]

I have killed hundreds of white tail deer over the past 43 years with many different calibers with most of the major manufactures bullets. I have only one experience using the 120 Speer Gold Dot bullet and it was from a 6.5 Grendel muzzle velocity of 2550 fps. Shot was from 111 yards to the center of the chest as the about 90 to 100 lb doe deer faced me. I have never experienced what this bullet did. It exhibited exactly in the deer what I have seen in jell test people have done. The bullet had to fully expand upon initial impact and did not fragment because there were no bullet fragments found or sign of any lacerations done exhibiting fragmentation. Jell test shows bullet expands with 5 peddles. The damage done was from the hydro displacement effect. Jell test shows a cavity about 7 inches deep and 5 inches diameter from this effect. The chest cavity was pulped two ribs on the right side and three ribs on the left side were broken and the left scapula was broken causing the leg to just flap. When processing with the deer hanging from hind legs with head down upon pulling the hide over the front shoulders lung and heart pulped mess came pouring out between the tissue that was shredded between the broken ribs and front of chest. Bullet held together and penetrated a total of about 20 inches on through the gut and exited about 6 inches in front of the crotch out the belly with a thumb size hole. In Jell bullet penetrated 18 to 20 inches. Many call this cavity that is caused by displacement of fluid in the tissue a "temporary cavity". There is nothing temporary about it in reality because the tissue that has been disrupted is still disrupted. This is what most likely happened in the OPs case and the bullet just did not make it out of the animal because it had to penetrate more than 20" from it's impact point. If one has to have a exit without destroying a lot of meat and have the deer not go far then quit using a firearm and get a cross bow that shoots 400+ fps and use a Rage or Muzzy trocar HBX broadhead that cuts a 2+ inch hole and keep your shots under 50 yards. They are wicked. LOL

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay, speculation. I cut this down from what I had, but suffice it to say that your assessment of the Speer Gold Dot bullet and the caliber both appear to be without merit and this is due to your misinterpretation of the evidence you described.

First, you didn't make a great shot. The trajectory of the bullet was such that it hit ONLY 1 vital organ and that was a singular lung. You missed the other lung, heart, and you missed the CNS (in this case, the spine). You missed hitting any bones. So the animal ran and ran well. Even if the bullet would have exited, the deer would have run a long way with a singular lung wound.

You believe the bullet exploded ("blew up") because you didn't find the bullet. You also note that you didn't find any fragments. This, coming from a caliber that you said you didn't think had enough horsepower and from a bonded bullet (Gold Dot) that did not contact any hard tissue. You see the contradiction? Why would you think such an underpowered bullet would be blowing up? In my experience, Gold Dots do not explode and generally have decent weight retention. That you failed to find evidence of the bullet is not because the bullet vaporized. It is because you missed it. Bullets can be very hard to find. I have done a lot of necropsies in search of bullets. I now use a metal detector to help find them and their fragments. Why? Because bullets are not always where you expect them to be. Bottom line, you have no evidence the bullet blew up. Your assessment is based on faulty logic and a lack of evidence.

There are .308 hunting rounds that won't give you 18" of gel penetration. Would they not have enough horsepower either?

I do deal with bullets that come apart violently, in particular, the Speer TNT which is not bonded. It is not uncommon to find multiple wound tracts and encounter numerous fragments while examining the wound channel. Similarly, fragments are very common with Hornady SST bullets that come apart. You often don't see them as much as you feel them. If you are just looking for them, you can miss them all together.

You said the deer had a 46" circumference. If the chest was a perfect circle, that would be a 14" diameter, but we are dealing in 3 dimensions and the chest is squished laterally. In order to penetrate through and through based on what you described, I am guessing that the bullet had to penetrate 18" plus both sections of hide. Hide add additional resistance. According to previous hunting authors, 2-4" of depth will be lost as compared to a gel test for each layer of hide penetrated. That is a lot of penetration. You can expect about 20" or so of penetration from a 120 gr. Speer Gold Dot in gel. That may not get you the through and through you want when you factor in the resistance of the hide.

You think a fragment of the bullet went through the diaphragm and into the stomach because you found solids and such in the chest cavity. Well, those could have come through the esophagus if it was damaged at all. So there is at least one alternative explanation for that other than an exploding bullet.

Again, as others have noted, this is a singular example. Educated minds don't draw vast conclusions based on singular examples.

In summary the way I see it, you had bad shot placement (and resultant ineffective trajectory through the body) that resulted in a bullet that only damaged one vital organ (of which there was a pair, hence redundancy) that failed to exit, in part, because you wanted it to travel a long way through the body, further than would be reasonable to expect. Because you made a bad shot that didn't damage much of significance, you had a lot of tracking to do and it was hard tracking without that second exit wound. You blamed the bullet for reasons that cannot be substantiated. You blamed the caliber. In the end, you have to do your job for the caliber and bullet to do their jobs.

[ricsmall]

^^^^what DNS said^^^^

Also, too little horsepower wouldn’t cause the bullet to “grenade”. Quite the contrary, it most likely would have remained intact. Bullets do strange things sometimes.

[Lazermule]

I have started this as a continued discussion on the "performance" of the 120 Gold Dot bullet from my previous posting.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?18440-My-best-buck-came-this-year

This hasn't left my head since it happened... I know its all speculation, but educated minds can generally flesh out such things.

I said I though that the bullet greneded, as I had solid waste, mixed with stomach contense inside the diaphragm. (With lungs and heart) The shot was slightly back from center of the lungs, (2" hole was found in onside lung) but angling forward and down. Some damage found "under" the front leg on opposite side. The only way solid waste/guts could get in there would be if some part of the bullet went back there.. I REALLY wish I had taken more time to look for the bullet, but I so seldom DONT GET two holes I simply don't think of it. Remember NO BONES where hit with this bullet, 100% SOFT tissue cause the bullets upsett. I wish I had measured the thickness of the chest cavity with the hide on but it was easily 2"+ thick.

The more I go over this and sleep on it... AND Knowing and trusting the Gold Dot line for so many years... AS WELL AS, seeing how specifically they recommend use of the bullet. I am leaning more and more, to the simple fact that the Grendel simply isn't a high horsepower cartridge. (Producing 15-1600 FPE) This was a very large deer at estimated 260+ on the hoof. It weighed 227# after three days hanging. It had a 46" chest. I am not putting it down in any way, just simply this is a larger, tougher and stronger critter than the average (for us) 150# deer.

I am not looking for any arguments on bullet failure or energy dump. I would like to get this out of my head, any talking it out seems to usually work for me. Just looking for educated speculation on what and how may have occurred.

Any and all opinions welcome.

CW

I really don't think what you saw here is caliber specific. I had a similar mystery when my 14 yr old son took a fork buck in Wisconsin. He was shooting Federal Fusion in his 7mm-08 and hit the buck just behind the shoulder and it was very slightly quartering toward him at 100 yards down a shooting lane. The deer was hit through the near lung, top of the heart and just clipped the far lung and exited right about at the diaphragm. Surprisingly, with that shot the deer went a little over 100 yards before tipping over. Tracking the deer, I noticed a few spots where there was blood soaked corn on the trail, and I asked my son if he was sure he hit it well and he assured me he did.

When we found the deer, it had indeed expired. I examined the hit and it indeed was a good hit and right where he was aiming. As I field dressed the deer I saw the near lung hit, top of the heart, clipped the far lung and exited by the diaphragm. BUT, there was also a hole in the diaphragm heading back into the stomach area and that is where the corn was coming from.

I guess to make a long story short my investigation revealed that the bullet hit a nearside rib and fragmented. The lung and heart damage wasn't as appreciable as the dozen or so prior kills with this combo so it would make sense that only a portion of the bullet went through that area and the other portion through the diaphragm basically "dividing" the damage between vitals and guts.

This is not characteristic of my/our experience with this ammo as with nearly a dozen or so kills with this ammo/ caliber combo all were "Bang Flops" or down within a bound or two.

I had a similar issue this year with my 300 AAC handgun. It is a 7.5" AR15 chassis handgun and shooting the Winchester "Deer Season" 150 grain ammo, I ran it across my chrony at 1850 fps. I had hoped to get a nice average size doe or buck in front of me to see what this little handgun would do. Well, what I got to test it on was quite a bit above "average", in fact it was a large 9 pointer very similar in size to one you posted. Anyway, the deer came in fast seemingly just appeared and I needed to act fast. I hit him at about 50 yards and he did the death kick and trotted to a stop and looked around. I hit him again with a double tap and down he went. This deer went 220 dressed so it was big, thick and heavy. Anyway, under investigation I found one copper jacket on the far side, one partially separated bullet with a perfect cylindrical core that weighed 126 grains, and a broken nearside rib. I couldn't find the 3rd, and I assume it was a pass through. I guess my point here is that this event to showed a fragmented bullet that most likely came apart when hitting a nearside rib.

That 300ACC handgun is awesome, I now have a 12" Grendel and I can't wait to try that out on an animal. I'm going to hope to see an average size doe or buck again to test it on.

LM

[cwlongshot]

I received a email from Speer yesterday.

Basically its there opinion the bullet was going too fast.

“My only thought if the bullet did blow up is that the velocity that this is designed to expand at was exceeded and with the over expansion the bullet came apart on you. This bullet is designed for 2600 fps and under and is optimal between 1800 and 2400 fps which is commonly what is achieved with an AR Style rifle.

Congrats on the nice deer and thank you for the review.



Cody B./Technical Service Rep.
CCI/Speer/Alliant
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(800)379-1732”

[wiguy]

Not much to add, but a few observations. A 227 lb dressed buck is a good sized deer, much more that many 125 lb deer hung on the pole.

The ‘mule kick’ often portrays a hit a bit aft, usually a liver hit. I realize your forensics point a bit forward of that.

I hunt a property in IL where the bucks often go over 200 lbs dressed. If hunting where big bucks are possible, and rifles allowed, I may opt for my 308 or 284 Winchester. One has to factor in hunting conditions, what if all one is offered is a 150 yard shot, 40 yards from the property line?

The great news is you found the deer, sounds like a long track with minimal sign to follow.

[cwlongshot]

I thought I had watched this before... Maybe I just forgot he did a gel test as I don't know him for doing many gel block shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvx2F0G5GvY

Good information from Johnny!

CW