95 Hornady V-Max: is there a velocity range where this is the right deer bullet?

[lazyengineer]

Maybe an odd question. Maybe asked before, but my search-fu is not strong today.

The 95 gr V-Max is designed to have high velocity and a thin jacket; to almost explosively expand and stop fast in smaller thin-skinned game; to devastating effect on such sized game. OK Cool. But everyone says no good on deer, because doesn't penetrate as much as desired in that heavier game - at the velocities typical to that light bullet. Ok, makes sense.

And a heavier hunting bullet like a 123 gr SST, has a little thicker jacket and is designed to run a bit slower, but still fast, and expand more slowly, yet still fully; to do a better job on heavier game like deer and such. OK, makes sense.

Makes sense, and both of those are great in their design ranges and distances. Here's my question - at more extended ranges where the bullets are running slower (or I suppose when fired from SBR/Pistol length BBL's); is there a point where that flips, and the relative decline in performance of both bullets with their lower velocities, hits a point where the V-Max becomes the better bullet? This particularly is going to apply to SBR and Pistol shooters, who can't launch a 123 much faster than 2200-2300 FPS right at the muzzle.

I see this post by @LRRPF52 at: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-728810/?
and it has this graphic:

where the far left is 1621 fps (no expansion), and far right is 2663 fps (full expansion).
Everyone keeps saying 1800 fps is the threashold for good expansion; and is the velocity of more extended range; which sounds great - but if you look at that photo again, that's the 2nd from the left. That's... some, but in comparison to the higher velocities, not as exciting to look at, at least.

So now I'm wondering, is there a velocity range where that 95 gr V-Max bullet is going slow enough, that it still expands, but not explosively and so also penetrates well - maybe even better then it does at close range? With a combination of penetration and expansion at that distance (and associated velocity), that actually makes it a better and more effective deer bullet, than a 123 behavior at the same distance?

This question will apply to the popular 90 TNT's as well.

[Javman]

It's probably work but you would need to stick to lung broadside shots. Some folks have tried it in the 6.5x55 but they aren't pushing them past 2,900fps. Load a few and try shooting some milk jugs at your intended hunting ranges and see how they perform and take it from there. Best of luck.

[Lemonaid]

Interesting idea. It might depend if the v-max can expand any without total disintegration and if the velocity window where it can expand is broad enough to be useful.
It would be a fun experiment.

[Djgrendel]

Not much in regards to sectional density. By the time it expands there will not be much bullet shank left to do its job. But, with that in mind, I was witness to a 300 lb black bear killed by a single 55 grain vmax from a 22-250. So it is possible, but I would not hang my hat on 1 example

[Javman]

Well quite a few deer have been taken with the 300BO with the 110Vmax, of course those that stuck to lung shots have done ok. But for me the fun part is testing on different types of media and milk jugs. Then try some on 'yotes and such and check terminal performance.

[A5BLASTER]

For head/neck high shoulder shots at close range it should work fine.

I personally would never ever ever take a lung area shot with a bullet like that on a deer. A hog well that's different, I count hogs lower then rats in my book, so don't care if they run off and die in the woods to be eaten by whatever, so yea I would use it on hogs.

Go to hornady website there should be some data at what speed that bullet is designed to do it's typical reaction on varmints and maybe some data on how slow it needs to go to have some kind of controlled expansion.

Or you could just buy some light weight hunting designed bullets and not have to worrie about it.

100 ttsx, 100 power something or other, 110, 95 and 85 grain trex, probably more I'm forgetting.

Is saving 10 to 15 cents a bullet or less worth losing a good eating deer. Or worse the feeling you cheaped out and shoot and lost a deer to suffer a long drawn out death because you wanted to save a few pennies on that shot.

Sorry if sounding rude, not meant that way just trying to get the old thinker going.

[kpswihart]

I can't comment on the V-Max, so I have no useful info for you there. I did kill a Sitka Blacktail at 421 yards (ranged) with a factory 123 SST, a couple of seasons ago. Average muzzle velocity for my the rifle / load was 2460 which puts velocity just north of 1750 at that range. The round was a complete pass through and broke the off side shoulder. It may have broken the other shoulder as well, I just can't remember. This is the only animal I've taken with the SST.

As mentioned in an earlier post, this is also an example size of one so this is definitely not definitive. I had no complaints with SST performance that day, though I have heard and read complaints from others about the SST as a hunting bullet. Not sure at what velocity, or if, the V-Max would offer better terminal results. I'm loading the 129 ABLR's for my 12" pistol, but have not taken any game with them as of yet. Factory SST's in my 12" pistol hit 1750ish at about 300 yards, according to Strelok. Hope this helps some.

[VASCAR2]

I water tested the 95 V-Max, 90 grain TNT and 85 grain Sierra Varmint. The results from the V-Max were very similar to the TNT. After DNS results on hogs with the 90 grain TNT I really don’t know till someone tries. Another bullet which might be a better choice is the 100 grain Nosler hunting Ballistic Tip. It has done better in weight retention in water testing. The Nosler 100 grain BT is very accurate in my rifles and I suspect it will have better weight retention and penetration on mid size game.

If you decide to try the 95 grain V-Max post your results.

[lazyengineer]

I water tested the 95 V-Max, 90 grain TNT and 85 grain Sierra Varmint. The results from the V-Max were very similar to the TNT. After DNS results on hogs with the 90 grain TNT I really don’t know till someone tries. Another bullet which might be a better choice is the 100 grain Nosler hunting Ballistic Tip. It has done better in weight retention in water testing. The Nosler 100 grain BT is very accurate in my rifles and I suspect it will have better weight retention and penetration on mid size game.

If you decide to try the 95 grain V-Max post your results.

Thanks! This sounds like awesome data. Did you post a more detailed compilation of your findings?

And agreed, DNS results on hogs, some of which are as big as deer, have been impressive! That, and my Grendel doesn't shoot 123s well for some reason, but shoots tight with those TNT 90s. I'll be testing the 95s soon on paper.

[VASCAR2]

I tested these loads on different occasions and the thread I created using the 95 V-Max was prior to PhotoBucket pulling their crap a few years ago and I lost my pictures. Here is a link to one test but without the pictures not sure it’s worth reading.

The sedate velocities of the 6.5 Grendel varmint bullets make them behave very different than if they are shot at high velocity with 264 WM, 6.5-284, 6.5-06 or 260 Remington. I’ve seen bullets deviate from an expected trajectory through critters because the bullet deflected off bone. The 6.5 Grendel varmint bullets don’t fragment as much as say a 55 grain Blitz King at 2800 FPS. I think part of this is the added weight/sectional density and lower velocity.

I know gel test are the accepted method for testing bullets but the results I’ve seen in animals is not a direct comparison to how the bullets behave in gel test. The advantage of gel test is a repeatable test to where you can compare results between different bullets at different velocity.

I think there are to many variables to say the 95 V-Max with prove effective out of 12” 6.5 Grendel barrel. I’ve seen bullets take the path of least resistance and not provide the quick termination I’d seen in similar situations. My guess is the 95 grain V-Max will behave in a similar manner to DNS results with TNT on feral hogs. One poster on AR-15.com posted where he used his 16” 6.5 Grendel with a hand loaded 95 grain V-Max on feral hogs. He made head-neck shots on a few large hogs and was satisfied with the results.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?10791-Red-Neck-6-5-Grendel-Bullet-Test-Part-1

I’d be reluctant to use the 95 grain V-Max on a large white tail buck with a 95 grain V-Max out of a 12” barrel unless the distance was not to close and not to far away in ideal conditions. On feral hogs or varmints where it wouldn’t matter as much if the animal wasn’t recovered I’d be more likely to use the 95 grain V-Max.

I’d sure be interested in the results if anyone tries.

[Jeepster18_88]

I've tested varmint bullets in the 270 and 30 Cal's. The original Speer varmint bullets were flat base and would explode less violently at normal non magnum velocity than the Hornady or Sierra bullets. When you dropped velocity way down, they performed like any other big game bullet with perfect mushrooms and high weight retention and penetration, which is why varmint shooters preferred the other brands because they were still violently exploding at long range on thin soft targets. That's why Speer created the TNT line but in my limited testing, it still holds together better at low speeds probably due to the flat base and possibly a slightly thicker jacket that's skived to keep it expanding like the others. The V-MAX has a thin jacket, plastic tip, and boat tail which all work against penetration and weight retention.

From what I've experienced, the velocity difference from complete break-up to non expansion is a very small window which would require creating a load to give the correct velocity for a predetermined distance. That window is much larger and most forgiving with the original Speer bullets (if you can find them) but I think you'll find the TNT will work better at this than the V-max. I have also found that the Nosler ballistic tips have a narrow window at which they stop working but the solid base keeps the penetration high as long as you keep it moving fast enough to expand. I couldn't get expansion out of my 30-30 which is well above the advertised threshold with 125gr bullets. The varmint NBT is stopped at 25 Call believe but it would do the job if it was available.

I've loaded the 27-30 calibers down to around 1100 fps and it's interesting to see the comparisons between bullets along the way. It's also very interesting to see that you can get amazing accuracy at low speeds easier than you can high speeds and a light bullet will penetrate extremely deep when it doesn't expand.

[A5BLASTER]

I've tested varmint bullets in the 270 and 30 Cal's. The original Speer varmint bullets were flat base and would explode less violently at normal non magnum velocity than the Hornady or Sierra bullets. When you dropped velocity way down, they performed like any other big game bullet with perfect mushrooms and high weight retention and penetration, which is why varmint shooters preferred the other brands because they were still violently exploding at long range on thin soft targets. That's why Speer created the TNT line but in my limited testing, it still holds together better at low speeds probably due to the flat base and possibly a slightly thicker jacket that's skived to keep it expanding like the others. The V-MAX has a thin jacket, plastic tip, and boat tail which all work against penetration and weight retention.

From what I've experienced, the velocity difference from complete break-up to non expansion is a very small window which would require creating a load to give the correct velocity for a predetermined distance. That window is much larger and most forgiving with the original Speer bullets (if you can find them) but I think you'll find the TNT will work better at this than the V-max. I have also found that the Nosler ballistic tips have a narrow window at which they stop working but the solid base keeps the penetration high as long as you keep it moving fast enough to expand. I couldn't get expansion out of my 30-30 which is well above the advertised threshold with 125gr bullets. The varmint NBT is stopped at 25 Call believe but it would do the job if it was available.

I've loaded the 27-30 calibers down to around 1100 fps and it's interesting to see the comparisons between bullets along the way. It's also very interesting to see that you can get amazing accuracy at low speeds easier than you can high speeds and a light bullet will penetrate extremely deep when it doesn't expand.

100 grain nosler ballistic tips can still exploded at short range from a 16 inch barrel and running right about 2500 fps, if shoulder bone is hit square, even on a very small deer.

Not to say it doesn't work well because it does, I know from much experience in faster cartridges and now from the grendel at 2500 fps and roughly 60 yards, lost the whole shoulder on that deer.

The v-max can work on deer but it's a short range lose alot of meat cns bullet or mid range lose hardly no meat cns bullet.

I would never ever attempt a lung shot on a deer with it or the tnt bullet. Head/neck high shoulder sure it could work well.

But then again there are much better low weight hunting type bullets that will work at close range to mid range shots to the heart/lung and cns shots on deer and very much reduce the risk of fatally wounding a deer to be lost and die a slow painful death.