Am I loading too HOT?

[ErikS]

I have been loading the 123 ELD-M over 27.5gr of AR-Comp and have had great results. I am seeing much lower charges listed for similar weight bullets now that AR-Comp is becoming a more popular powder for the Grendel.

For example the max load over a 120 Speer Gold Dot is listed at 25.3. I am over that by over 2gr. I have seen no issues and have gotten good case life but I don't want to tear up my rifle.

What gives, do I need to back off and try again? I know that this is a popular load here.

[rabiddawg]

Where did you get your load data? You should know what that max is before you ever start.

I am too tired to look this up for you.


Get Grendel reloading guides at arbuildbox.com

[ErikS]

Uh, from here. I got the load data from here from the fellow users of the Grendel Forum.

It was presented here long before formal load data for the powder was available.

[A5BLASTER]

Did you do a pressure ladder over the chronagrah?

[BobinNC]

Where did you get your load data? You should know what that max is before you ever start.

I am too tired to look this up for you.


Get Grendel reloading guides at arbuildbox.com

Why?? What does Max from a book have to do with anything?? MAX is what your rifle tells you is MAX. Sometimes MAX in your rifle, with your components, is lower than the book MAX and sometimes it's higher than the book MAX. In my over 45 years of reloading I've blown primers with a book minimum load (in a Custom 240 Weatherby), and shot a full 7 grains over a book MAX in a factory Sako 9.3x62.

A MAX load is a guideline, nothing more, nothing less. It is not something etched in stone, or a place on a map that says "Here be Dragons". I also have the impression you have never developed and worked with Wildcats? With many their is or was (before Al Gore invented the internet in any event) no Book Min or MAX. A reloader was and is on their own. Yes, it's nice to know what some book or some random reloader says is MAX as a point of reference, but that's really all it is a "point of reference" and not dispositive one way or the other of the true MAX in your rifle, with your loads.

As another reference, here is a 2014 article showing 28 grains of AR-Comp under a 120 grain A-Max as a "safe" load in the authors rifle. The OP's load is .5 grains less with a 3 grain heavier bullet. It has all the indications of a "safe" MAX load in "his rifle". IMHO and YMMV.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/handloading-allows-6-5mm-grendel-shine/99645

[Jimla]

I own both books, Grendel reloading guides at arbuildbox.com has no load data for either 123gr ELD-M or Speer 120gr Gold Dot. No pressure tested results for any 120gr or 123gr bullets with AR-COMP. People reported using 26.5gr AR-COMP with 120gr Bullet, and 27.7-28.0gr AR-COMP with 123gr bullets but they could be over pressure because not using pressure testing equipment.

Speer load data seems to be off by a lot from real world pressures, the publish data from powder manufactures seems better. I found Speer Load often is off from powder manufacturer's load results by grain. I had a Speer 7mm-08 load with overpressure signs a grain and half under max, but quickload and the powder manufacture had correct max load data.

I like checking with quickload to get and idea of safety of loads, muzzle velocity is the key to look at, you're 27.5gr load is overpressured according to quickload, but could be safe if muzzle velocity is low enough. If you have access to a chronograph you can look at muzzle velocity to find the max load, below I listed maximum load in fps for different barrel lengths. If you are going above Speer 120 GD Max load be vary careful, increasing .1 gr at a time and use a chronograph, I would not go above 26.7 grains.

Be careful with 120 Gold Dot bullets, they are made differently and could have different pressure curves.


"123 ELD-M over 27.5gr of AR-Comp COL 2.245" Pressure 58392 psi (Dangerous Overpressure)
Quickload fps at Max Load(if below 27.5gr would be ok):
16" Barrel 2375fps
18" Barrel 2432fps
20" Barrel 2481fps
24" Barrel 2561fps

Speer 120 GD is not in QL so I used 120 ELD-M

"120 ELD-M over 26.7gr of AR-Comp COL 2.245" 50799 psi (Near Maximum)
Quickload fps at Max Load(if below 26.7gr would may? be ok)
16" Barrel 2404fps
18" Barrel 2463fps
20" Barrel 2514fps
24" Barrel 2595fps

[grayfox]

[QUOTE=BobinNC;232479]Why??
... With many their is or was (before Al Gore invented the internet in any event) no Book Min or MAX. A reloader was and is on their own. ...
/[QUOTE]

Nothing??? Gee I had reloading books long before Al Gore even thought about an internet, .30-06 was my flavor at the time with 180 gr bullets.
True every rifle is different but a bullet or powder mfr testing is a lot more reliable than you're giving credit for.

OTOH if you are talking only about wildcats or non-tested combo's, then you have a point. Even with that IIRC the Powley's computer approach goes back a ways....
We do have some threads on AR Comp and the Hdy 123's. As long as you are not loading a 120 (with its different ogive shape) into the lands and use an appropriate COAL, 123 data will work, Hornady puts them in the same data sheet.

I did some testing with 123 sst AR Comp and my howa a while back; my final limit I set up was 28.4 for that rifle. Which is a bolt action so the pressure could be too high for an AR load.

[Drillboss]

I have been loading the 123 ELD-M over 27.5gr of AR-Comp and have had great results. I am seeing much lower charges listed for similar weight bullets now that AR-Comp is becoming a more popular powder for the Grendel.

For example the max load over a 120 Speer Gold Dot is listed at 25.3. I am over that by over 2gr. I have seen no issues and have gotten good case life but I don't want to tear up my rifle.

What gives, do I need to back off and try again? I know that this is a popular load here.

That's my problem with AR Comp. The only pressure tested data for it that I've seen is for the Speer 120 gr Gold Dot. My problem is that Speer's data for that bullet is a couple grains lower and quite a bit slower than everyone else's data for 120 or 123 grain bullets. I don't know if there's something unique about that bullet's construction or what the difference may be.

I just sit around with my fingers crossed, hoping someone else will pressure test AR Comp for the Grendel. My concern is that if Alliant ever does test it, they'll just use the Speer bullet, since they're under the same umbrella.

[ErikS]

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3861-6-5-Grendel-Preferred-Loads/page16&highlight=AR-Comp

Lots of folks have been using the same load as me. I suspect I am not in the same boat. I got 5 loadings out of my brass using this load and tossed it because I started getting split necks.

[Drillboss]

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...hlight=AR-Comp

Lots of folks have been using the same load as me. I suspect I am not in the same boat. I got 5 loadings out of my brass using this load and tossed it because I started getting split necks.

Lots of folks without pressure data. I'm not saying they're wrong, I just don't know if they're right.

[BobinNC]

Yes, GreyFox I was only talking about wildcats. I've owned and worked with:

250 Sav AI
263 Spence (wildcat formed off of a 7x57 case similar to a 6.5x57)
7x57 AI
7x64 Benneke ( not a Wildcat but at one time little US data in common load books)
30-338 Mag
35 G&H Magnum
375 Weatherby (The most obscure and little known of Roy's kittens, designed well before his ridiculous 378 Weatherby)
416 Taylor
458 Lott

So yes, I've worked with many rounds with scarce load data. Somehow I've failed to blow myself up or have a rifle, handgun or shotgun self disassemble it's self with one of my reloaded rounds. Guess I've been just lucky, or prudent, take your pick.

[ErikS]

I bought the book. I want some tested data.

[A5BLASTER]

I bought the book. I want some tested data.

I will ask again. Did you work up your load over a chonagraph?

If you didnt, then no amount of book data can tell you if your load is too hot for your barrel. It could be under book data and still too hot for your barrel. Or it maybe over book data and too hot for anybody's barrel.

Either way I would go too cfe223 or leverevolution for use with the 123 eld-m.

Hope this helps.

[ErikS]

No I didn't run it over a chronograph.

Yes, a book of tested load data is valuable even without a chronograph. The Grendel is a SAAMI cartridge not a wildcat.

[A5BLASTER]

No I didn't run it over a chronograph.

Yes, a book of tested load data is valuable even without a chronograph. The Grendel is a SAAMI cartridge not a wildcat.

That's correct but even the book data can't tell you if your load is hot unless you have run it over a chonagraph and know for sure where your at.

You have too check the velocity against what the book says.

If there is no book data then it is even more important that you started low and worked up in no more then. 3 tenths grain increase until you found the velocity spike or dump.

When you find that spike or dump you just found the max for your barrel.

Without the chronagrah it's all just a guess.

With complete chronagrah data for your load and barrel you can then put that into quickload and know exactly where your load is at pressure wise.

Hope this helps sir.