I learned something new, thought I would share with sizing to chamber

[Sticks]

I have not been around here for a while, but I gleaned something that makes sense with what I have noticed in my gas guns, that I should have applied to my bolt guns to extend brass life. I thought I would pass it along here.

When I have been sizing 1x fired brass, I take measurements and "Bump" the shoulder back .002 - .003, log that in my book for each rifle it was fired from and that is the number I always size to. I have 6 ladies and 4 of them have specific loading and stacks of food, not to be fed to anyone else.

I had been applying this method to my PRC, and as I am one that will only buy factory ammo and just reload from that, my food base is strictly Hornady, which has a less than stellar reputation in the shooting community for brass life.

Turns out that I should have maybe took this method and stretched it out a little longer.

I was reading up on some individuals that were suffering from case head separation at the 5th or 6th reloading of Hornady brass, and by and large the community was in agreement that it was normal with crappy Hornady brass. A few did chime in and question the methods and those that mirrored my own, were told that they should have sized the 1x brass without touching the shoulder and see if it chambers. If it did, then the brass had not finished stretching to the chamber. This individual's intent to only bump it back .001 or .002 from what was presumed to be the chamber, was actually .006-.007 - he did confirm by shooting factory ammo, size the body, fire again, size the body, now the bolt will not close. Thus he was originally over working the brass with spring back radically shortening it's life.

Note - I always measure my brass that is sorted by who ate it before I reload it, and log in my book any needed adjustments. I do not anneal.

What I have noticed, especially with my gas guns that the chamber of say, Lilly (26" Lilja AR Upper), measured 1x datum line with my comparator at 1.218 (Factory 1.210 +/-.002). I would bump those rounds back to 1.216 and call it good.

All 4 of the Howas (Ruby, Fiona, Wolf, and Sandy) all are around the 1.214...I think, and get bumped back to 1.212. Could be that 1.214 will still let me close the bolt. I do know that the bolt on Sandy will be a very stiff close on .1218 (brought the wrong food to a match)

Now Bart _RIP (18" Bartlein barrel) who had what I thought was close to the same numbers prompted another thread here (Is my chamber stretching/ cracking?) turns out was always just had a bad (reamer gouged) chamber that was really long at 1.226. My brass was coming up on 4x and was not springing back as much giving me longer than usual numbers, and finally taking an imprint of the chamber gouging.

Every rifle has a different chamber, depending on the guy running the reamer, and how old the reamer is (wear).

Point is, for those that are reloading for a specific rifle/chamber and are keeping the food sorted if more than one rifle eats the same food, size the body only and see if the bolt will close on the fired case presuming the case OAL is still within spec as you don't want to jam the case mouth into the lands (or a carbon ring - keep those throats clean!) and get a false no-go. Following this method should extend the life of your brass, and give you more consistent loading. So what you think your chamber is 1.216 may actually be 1.219 and you are over sizing your brass.

[BCHunter]

Great info, thanks for sharing,...could you elaborate on your procedure for keeping all your different loads separate?

My range is an hour away and i find myself doing marthon shooting sessions multiple guns multiple loads. I usually end up throwing the brass in my range bag, and end up resorting it at a later date. Mostly with new factory, reloads go back into reloading boxes.

[Sticks]

Great info, thanks for sharing,...could you elaborate on your procedure for keeping all your different loads separate?

My range is an hour away and i find myself doing marthon shooting sessions multiple guns multiple loads. I usually end up throwing the brass in my range bag, and end up resorting it at a later date. Mostly with new factory, reloads go back into reloading boxes.

^^^^Right there^^^^ Don't wait, separate them then.

I put the fired cases back in the box they came out of. I re-use factory ammo boxes as the plastic trays are quite nice, and print out load data on mailing labels and seal the box with it when i load them up. If it's for a specific rifle, that label also has her name on it.

The only delay I have is when I get around to dealing with the fired cases at home. I still have 12+ boxes of brass sitting on my bench. I will measure samples from each box, and put them in with the other brass for that rifle or food source. I only process (clean, size, clean, prime) one food group at a time so they don't get mixed up, and then only when there is 300+ cases ready to go. Then when I load I grab the 100ct ziploc bag and double check the sized measurement against the load and rifle I am loading for, then get to work.

[BCHunter]

Thanks, Sticks.

I just need to develope a better routine, I'm only shooting 20-30 rounds per load/gun per trip. Then dump in labeled boxes back home, i should just process the brass more often in smaller batches. Will be a good project this winter.

[kmon]

I have 2 Grendels one gets fed Hornady while the other gets Lapua brass. Easy to keep separate. In the ast I have also used different colored sharpies to indicate which gun on the brass or load with different reconcilable primers when using the same brass for different rifles of the same caliber.

[Bobke]

Have a similar circumstance to work with, actively loading and shooting 6 Grendel?s. Have rat holed my Lapua brass for when the Hornady will need to go out of rotation for loose pockets, but have managed more than 10 reloads in the ?horrible? Hornady brass by annealing every time shot, and sizing .0015-.002 over fired shoulder measurements for each specific barrel. Three measure close, the Saterns are within .001 and one Bartlein is a bit longer, so regimens are specific. Have been trying to find a ?one load fits all?, and close with AR Comp and 123 Sierras or 129 ABLRs and CFE, but the brass is processed according to above, regardless. Damn that Hornady brass, eh Sticks?

[Mark611]

Well I'm not happy to hear this about the Hornady Brass! I just purchased 500 cases from MIDSOUTH, $35 pre 100, is this why it was so cheap in price? I just got my 6.5G AR build together a few mons ago and ad hearing to my brothers experience using the Hornady Brass and the accuracy he's been getting is why I purchased this Brass! he's running 27.5gns of XBR, I think their running 2500fps with the 123gn ELDM's so I'm asking myself if the lower pressures will give longer case life to the HORNDAY BRASS? if not is the Star line any Better? I would appreciate ur guy's thoughts on this

[Bobke]

As noted, I have no issue with Hornady brass, as long as you anneal frequently and size with minimal shoulder setback. Having the proper tools to measure all of the critical dimensions, and processing accordingly, is key to it?s longevity. My loads are probably 95+ % near max, so not soft peddling anywhere. Is Hornady quality and consistency equal to Lapua lot to lot-probably not, but you?ll wear a barrel out before you do your 500 pcs of Hornady brass.

[Mark611]

Thank you Bobke, I plane to do that as u have mentioned any way, just thought their might have been a real issue with the Hornady brass?

[A5BLASTER]

I have not been around here for a while, but I gleaned something that makes sense with what I have noticed in my gas guns, that I should have applied to my bolt guns to extend brass life. I thought I would pass it along here.

When I have been sizing 1x fired brass, I take measurements and "Bump" the shoulder back .002 - .003, log that in my book for each rifle it was fired from and that is the number I always size to. I have 6 ladies and 4 of them have specific loading and stacks of food, not to be fed to anyone else.

I had been applying this method to my PRC, and as I am one that will only buy factory ammo and just reload from that, my food base is strictly Hornady, which has a less than stellar reputation in the shooting community for brass life.

Turns out that I should have maybe took this method and stretched it out a little longer.

I was reading up on some individuals that were suffering from case head separation at the 5th or 6th reloading of Hornady brass, and by and large the community was in agreement that it was normal with crappy Hornady brass. A few did chime in and question the methods and those that mirrored my own, were told that they should have sized the 1x brass without touching the shoulder and see if it chambers. If it did, then the brass had not finished stretching to the chamber. This individual's intent to only bump it back .001 or .002 from what was presumed to be the chamber, was actually .006-.007 - he did confirm by shooting factory ammo, size the body, fire again, size the body, now the bolt will not close. Thus he was originally over working the brass with spring back radically shortening it's life.

Note - I always measure my brass that is sorted by who ate it before I reload it, and log in my book any needed adjustments. I do not anneal.

What I have noticed, especially with my gas guns that the chamber of say, Lilly (26" Lilja AR Upper), measured 1x datum line with my comparator at 1.218 (Factory 1.210 +/-.002). I would bump those rounds back to 1.216 and call it good.

All 4 of the Howas (Ruby, Fiona, Wolf, and Sandy) all are around the 1.214...I think, and get bumped back to 1.212. Could be that 1.214 will still let me close the bolt. I do know that the bolt on Sandy will be a very stiff close on .1218 (brought the wrong food to a match)

Now Bart _RIP (18" Bartlein barrel) who had what I thought was close to the same numbers prompted another thread here (Is my chamber stretching/ cracking?) turns out was always just had a bad (reamer gouged) chamber that was really long at 1.226. My brass was coming up on 4x and was not springing back as much giving me longer than usual numbers, and finally taking an imprint of the chamber gouging.

Every rifle has a different chamber, depending on the guy running the reamer, and how old the reamer is (wear).

Point is, for those that are reloading for a specific rifle/chamber and are keeping the food sorted if more than one rifle eats the same food, size the body only and see if the bolt will close on the fired case presuming the case OAL is still within spec as you don't want to jam the case mouth into the lands (or a carbon ring - keep those throats clean!) and get a false no-go. Following this method should extend the life of your brass, and give you more consistent loading. So what you think your chamber is 1.216 may actually be 1.219 and you are over sizing your brass.

Interesting. I have indeed noticed brass that has been cleaned but not resized would fit fine and get a closed bolt in my ar grendels.

So what your doing is neck sizing after the first cleaning and then full length sizing after the second fireing?

I may give this a try.

[Sticks]

I am having to start over with all my ladies. Fire, FL size (including neck) 5 cases - not moving the shoulder - make sure case length is w/i spec. Check to see if the bolt closes on them. If so, measure the datum on the shoulder, log it. Fire, rinse and repeat until the bolt no longer closes on the case, then bump the shoulder .001 increments until the bolt closes (start with another piece of brass, don't try to bump the same one again), measure and log it. What brass I have is probably already stretched around the case head, so their days are numbered. New brass however should go the distance.

***NOTE - If your 5 random cases all have the bolt close on them, I would set your sizing die to the longest of those and then size all of them at that. You don't want a stray long case or three getting in your mix and causing a stoppage. You will know when you run the press if you hit a shoulder. I would measure that case and check to see if the bolt closes to be sure.

If I have to have 6 different stacks of food for individual dietary needs, then so be it. I would go as much as .003 shoulder bump to fit the shortest chamber if I was going to share food, but no more.

I would not worry about having just bought 500 new Hornady brass. Brass is a consumable and even Lapua wears out. It's how long you can make them last by not abusing them.

Hornady @ $100 for 250 cases. If they only last 5 firings, then your reloading cost you would calculate just like powder, bullets, primers is $.08 per round. 10 firings is $.04 per round.

Lapua @ $100 for 100 - price is $.10 per round at 10 firings.

Virgin brass is going to need at least one firing on it before you can get accurate load development, especially if your chamber is long. I would start 5% under on your existing powder charge with virgin brass and do a small load development session before loading them all to make sure you are not spiking pressures before going back to your existing load. This is why I prefer to get my brass from factory ammo. I know it shoots good, and is accurate, I just have a different dope for factory ammo.

[Sticks]

So I double checked my PRC, and I had indeed been sizing them at least .006 from chamber shoulder. Gonna be a while before I find out for sure, but I think I am on the money now. On my 5th firing with Hornady brass and only had ~ 30% that needed trimmed (ran them all anyhow). This should also reduce or remove the need to trim.

My 4 ladies (Howa 6.5 Gs) were also oversized. Was bumping back to 1.211 (were at 1.2135 fired) and the chambers are 1.215 for a firm bolt with no shoulder change on unfired extraction and measure. Set them at 1.214.

All of my AR brass has been processed so I can not make that check for a while. Bart got sent back to PF and the replacement barrel is still sitting in the safe, so all I have is Lilly, and she has not been fired in 6 or 7 months.

[A5BLASTER]

So I double checked my PRC, and I had indeed been sizing them at least .006 from chamber shoulder. Gonna be a while before I find out for sure, but I think I am on the money now. On my 5th firing with Hornady brass and only had ~ 30% that needed trimmed (ran them all anyhow). This should also reduce or remove the need to trim.

My 4 ladies (Howa 6.5 Gs) were also oversized. Was bumping back to 1.211 (were at 1.2135 fired) and the chambers are 1.215 for a firm bolt with no shoulder change on unfired extraction and measure. Set them at 1.214.

All of my AR brass has been processed so I can not make that check for a while. Bart got sent back to PF and the replacement barrel is still sitting in the safe, so all I have is Lilly, and she has not been fired in 6 or 7 months.

You can send Lilly to me I will work her out lol.

[1Shot]

Just a little tip for those asking how to keep your cases separated from which rifle they were shot in. BRASS CATCHER. I run a brass catcher on all my ARs. Fire a string and then empty the catcher and put the cases into a marked box as to which rifle they came out of or back into the specific rifles box of hand loads. You can get by with just one catcher if you are strapped for cash. Get the one that straps on with Velcro. If shooting a bolt rifle just put the case back into it's specific box.

Just another tip. I started doing this back when I was in a rifle club. People had a habit of when a cease fire going down range time came while you were down range checking targets etc. would pick up your cases that had been ejected from a semi auto. There was one specific Ah**e with whom I almost came to blows with over this because he did not want to give my cases back when I asked for them. To solve this problem I made a catcher out of PVC pipe with a cloth bag sewn to it that would sit on the shooting table or with a longer piece of pipe could be used if you wanted to stand and shoot. Basically the frame was a square 2 1/2' X 2 1/2' with a T in the middle of the bottom piece that what ever length piece of pipe needed to get the height you wanted it to sit would fit into and the base it sat into was three pieces of wood 2x8s 1 1/2' long stacked and screwed together with the proper size for the pipe hole drilled in the center for a base. Just position it to where the ejection pattern is and no more chasing cases down. A plus to this is also no dirt or mud on the cases.

[Kswhitetails]

Sticks, a friend told me a couple years ago to size neck only and see if it would chamber in every rifle I own from once fired brass. Then, I'd know if my brass had stretched to the actual end of the chamber or not, which as you point out, is different in every rifle. So, that sparked a question for me. Why oh why don't folks buy a caliber, then a finish reamer? Finish ream the rifle you start with. Then any subsequent chambers share the same reamer. Minus the miniscule reamer wear use to use, everything now starts from the same point, and should - if close enough in round count - share ammunition with impunity.

Funny how reading your post here reminded me of the question that's always been there, but I've always shrugged it off thinking it was a stupid case of not knowing what I don't know...