Problem forming from 7.62x39

[ergobob]

I just started trying to form 6.5 Grendel from 7.62 Fiochi brass. I'm using Hornady dies and shell holder.
When I resize the brass has a small ring just above the extractor groove that still mic's out at the original size of 7.62.
I've checked shell holder, correct one. Adjusted the die all the way down to hit the shell holder. It looks like the brass is not going far enough into the die.
Anyone else have this problem?

I have been reloading since 1975. Load numerous pistol and rifle calibers and have formed several different wildcat cases over the years. But never had a problem like this that couldn't be solved by adjusting forming die.

Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[grayfox]

Resizing dies do not resize the lowest part of the case, down in the case web part. There's a transition between that lower, somewhat thicker part and the case wall. There are some dies called small-base dies that do attempt to do that, IIRC, but actually that's not the answer for you IMO. They work the brass way too hard.

The real answer is to get into 6.5 Grendel brass, Lapua, Hornady, AA, Starline, maybe federal although federal is too soft to get many reloads out of it.
The 7.62x39 brass typically has a large primer hole and you should be going to the small primer style of the above mentioned brass.

Apparently (before my time in Grendel) there was a time at the start of the Grrr life that re-forming 7.62 brass was common but then there weren't any Grendel brass makers.

You started your reloading about when I did mine, early 70's (.30-06 for me), the reload discipline has matured a lot since then.

[ergobob]

Thanks for the info.
I got hold of 500 ads of 7.62 real cheap so I thought what the heck. I looked it up on youtube, always the truth etc. and saw people doing it so..
I took a close look at the case holder with a case in it and it seemed to have a lot of vertical play in the case. The holder seems to be almost to tall in relationship to where the case goes in the die.
I've stockpiled copious quantities of Grendel brass, I just wanted ammo to use for hunting or 3 gun that I didn't have to recover.

I started reloading fresh out of college. New job no money and a 44mag and 8mm G43 to feed. So being half Scott and cheap I decided I'll reload.
Started with a Lyman turret press. Now still have it along with 2 others.
I love cartridges like the Grendel and 40 Super.

[lazyengineer]

I'm not having this problem, and am running a Hornady die set, in a Hornady press. Also, I'm not sure the nature of the problem, since at no place on the body of a 7.62x39 casing, is it larger in diameter than a 6.5 Grendel casing (other than the neck of course). I'm not sure who's Shell holder I'm running though....

While sizing such brass is remarkably easy, requiring very little extra effort, there are basically 2 items of note that I have to found when running 7.62X39 brass:
1) They typically require the die to be adjusted down some more; even on subsequent runs after having been fire-formed. I guess because the brass is just thicker and that affects the sizing somehow.
2) On virgin brass, if the neck isn't uniform (i.e. if it's caved in any), then the neck will sometimes fold-in and essentially be ruined and not work. I get this between 20-50% of the time if the mouth doesn't start very round already. Since the brass is typically free cast-aways, and the effort to running them is so low, I don't mind - I just toss those and keep going.

I have found that the casings, even though tapered, tend to feed and cycle just fine in my E-Lander mags, even when I load up all 17 rounds in a mag. I wasn't expecting that, which is nice. Since the wall thickness is thicker, I tend to be hesitant to use the same load data in 7.62 brass as I do in actual Grendel cases. It's take a while, but for me I've found best performance in general with these cases (and especially with mixed-bag of these cases), is with 90 gr TNT's and a mild load of CFE223. I've also found personally, that there is no difference in performance and reliably between one-fired still X x39 shaped casings, and the casings after having been fire-formed to full Grendel dimension; or at least, nothing that I've noticed on paper, chrony, or performance.

I will say, the resurgence of AK popularity has been nice, as 7.62x39 brass is often just laying on the ground now; all you have to do is pick it up.

[LR1955]

I just started trying to form 6.5 Grendel from 7.62 Fiochi brass. I'm using Hornady dies and shell holder.
When I resize the brass has a small ring just above the extractor groove that still mic's out at the original size of 7.62.
I've checked shell holder, correct one. Adjusted the die all the way down to hit the shell holder. It looks like the brass is not going far enough into the die.
Anyone else have this problem?

I have been reloading since 1975. Load numerous pistol and rifle calibers and have formed several different wildcat cases over the years. But never had a problem like this that couldn't be solved by adjusting forming die.

Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

EB:

If you shot that brass from an AK, chances are you will never get it to size down for the Grendel. Get rid of the once fired stuff if it was shot through an AK. Or you will pay the price with blown primers, headspace separation and most likely out of battery firing.

Even with unfired virgin brass, we sometimes had a hard time getting the brass sized down enough to chamber. Another PITA of trying to form 7.62 brass to Grendel.

Sometimes it was the shoulder that didn't get bumped sufficiently so we started measuring our shell holders until we found one that was thinner than the others, set it so the shell plate hit the die then screwed the die down about another 1/4 turn. You need a press as solid as a Rock Chucker to do this without damage to the linkage of the press.

What I have also done is to size it down camming over and if it still didn't want to chamber, I would drop the empty case into the chamber and let the bolt go, forcing the brass into the chamber. Would have to mortar the case out but generally that sized it down enough to avoid an out of battery firing during fireforming.

Even with virgin brass and proper sizing down most of your fireforming loads will not chamber easily so I would just individually load and shoot them. Drop the fireforming round into the chamber, point down range, let the bolt go forward on its own. Never had a out of battery firing if I let the bolt go forward on its own when fireforming. However, if it does not chamber you will see the value of a bolt assist and a rubber mallet. Worse case, mortar the round out but keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction. It will take a while but the bolt will eventually open.

So, have fun!

LR55

[lazyengineer]

EB:

If you shot that brass from an AK, chances are you will never get it to size down for the Grendel. Get rid of the once fired stuff if it was shot through an AK. Or you will pay the price with blown primers, headspace separation and most likely out of battery firing.

Even with unfired virgin brass, we sometimes had a hard time getting the brass sized down enough to chamber. Another PITA of trying to form 7.62 brass to Grendel.

Sometimes it was the shoulder that didn't get bumped sufficiently so we started measuring our shell holders until we found one that was thinner than the others, set it so the shell plate hit the die then screwed the die down about another 1/4 turn. You need a press as solid as a Rock Chucker to do this without damage to the linkage of the press.

What I have also done is to size it down camming over and if it still didn't want to chamber, I would drop the empty case into the chamber and let the bolt go, forcing the brass into the chamber. Would have to mortar the case out but generally that sized it down enough to avoid an out of battery firing during fireforming.

Even with virgin brass and proper sizing down most of your fireforming loads will not chamber easily so I would just individually load and shoot them. Drop the fireforming round into the chamber, point down range, let the bolt go forward on its own. Never had a out of battery firing if I let the bolt go forward on its own when fireforming. However, if it does not chamber you will see the value of a bolt assist and a rubber mallet. Worse case, mortar the round out but keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction. It will take a while but the bolt will eventually open.

So, have fun!

LR55

Interesting. I haven't experienced these problems in the few hundred I've run so far, but I'll watch out for it myself. Almost all my 7.62x39 brass is AK fired. Though I wonder.... Most AK's today are US made, to more US standards; I wonder if they have tighter chambers than typical in the past, and with that less stretched brass...?

In any event, it's actually been pretty easy in my experience to just pick up boxer 7.62X39 brass, turn down the die a bit, and run with it. So far, no blown primers, OOB';s, head separations, or other issues - some is on 4th cycle already. I did get a couple split necks, since I don't bother annealing; which I just tossed. But I'll definitely pay attention, and thank you kindly for the headsup. I'm also running mine somewhat mild, as just target and plinking brass, which maybe helps.

What are your thoughts on the OOB issue? I was under the impression that such is hard to do in an AR platform.

[LR1955]

Interesting. I haven't experienced these problems in the few hundred I've run so far, but I'll watch out for it myself. Almost all my 7.62x39 brass is AK fired. Though I wonder.... Most AK's today are US made, to more US standards; I wonder if they have tighter chambers than typical in the past, and with that less stretched brass...?

In any event, it's actually been pretty easy in my experience to just pick up boxer 7.62X39 brass, turn down the die a bit, and run with it. So far, no blown primers, OOB';s, head separations, or other issues - some is on 4th cycle already. I did get a couple split necks, since I don't bother annealing; which I just tossed. But I'll definitely pay attention, and thank you kindly for the headsup. I'm also running mine somewhat mild, as just target and plinking brass, which maybe helps.

What are your thoughts on the OOB issue? I was under the impression that such is hard to do in an AR platform.

Consider yourself lucky to have so few problems with the 7.62 X 39 brass. I think you may be the only one I know of who didn't have problems with about ten percent of the cases.

As for the OOB issue -- I do not have any ideas why. Obviously, the primer went off before the bolt was completely locked up. When my gunsmith got the bolt carrier out and was able to inspect the bolt and firing pin, he didn't find anything wrong. Bolt carrier still functioned so the only thing that was replaced was the bolt and firing pin. Still shoots fine. The bolt was opened up but surprisingly no lugs sheared. Just bent outwards. The brass was ruptured lengthwise and was stuck firmly into the bolt. When my gunsmith got the bolt carrier and bolt out, the primer looked just fine. You would expect the primer to be flattened but it looked text book. Probably because most of the pressure went down through the magazine when the cartridge ruptured.

The brass was real Grendel brass, not 7.62 X 39. I think it was Lapua. Primers were CCI-450. Bullets were not jamming into the rifling. Moderate load.

Just one of those things that can happen I guess.

LR55

[ergobob]

I just looked up 7.26x39 and 6.5 Grendel in my Lyman 50th issue and Current Hornady loading manual.
Both list the 7.62 case diameter at .200 from base of cartridge at .443. The fired cases I have are .443 @.220
Both list 6.5 Grendel case diameter at .200 from the base at .441. Small difference in diameter.
After resizing the 7.62 brass at .200 it is .443, at .208 it is .441. This was resized with shell holder in full contact with base of die. Using Hornady #6 shell holder that came with die set.

Shell colder to high from base of cartridge?

[ergobob]

Sorry, My bad!!
I looked up a reloading guide from 10-2011and one from 2010 and both list the Grendel at .443 at .200 from base.
Now I will bitch to Lyman and Hornady about their goof!!

Did more investigating and found out my die is not setting the shoulder back enough even with the die touching the shell holder at full extension.

[tdbru]

ergobob,
make sure that the bottom of the die touches the shellholder kind of hard when you re-form x39 to Grendel. before G brass was common in my area i did a lot of re-forming. x39 boxer was free. so after a deprime, i have a lyman deprime only die, i'd tumble the cases and get them clean. then neck/shoulder brass anneal. then lube and size. neck turn, since necks get too thick when sizing down, load, fireform. then i'd deprime, clean, and re-neck/shoulder anneal one more time before resizing and reloading. all in all a real pia to re-form. but at the time it was all i could get where i was.
-tdbru

[LR1955]

Sorry, My bad!!
I looked up a reloading guide from 10-2011and one from 2010 and both list the Grendel at .443 at .200 from base.
Now I will bitch to Lyman and Hornady about their goof!!

Did more investigating and found out my die is not setting the shoulder back enough even with the die touching the shell holder at full extension.

That is nothing new. Guys went to lengths to find shell holders that were thin enough. I ended up grinding a shell holder down. Yes, it worked but I still had a piece of brass now and again be a bit sticky when chambering for the first fireforming shot. Once fireformed I still had to bump them a bit more than Grendel brass.

LR55

[LR1955]

EB:

Just remembered another thing. Once you fireform the brass, you will probably need to back off the sizing die for the rest of the life of the fireformed brass so you may want to check this before sizing down after fireforming. I think the 7.62 X 39 brass is a bit longer to the base of the shoulder which is why it was difficult to get to chamber. Not sure but I recall backing the die off after fireforming or it would size the brass down too much. Makes sense.

Also, after you fireform you may want to check for donuts. I found them in most of the 7.62 X 39 brass I sized down and formed. I removed them using an internal reamer. I think I was the only one who went through this step so it was probably not a issue.

When this was the only way of getting Grendel brass, a couple of guys on the forum made contraptions to blow out the brass using water pressure. As I recall, one of them worked pretty well but none of them totally blew out the brass. It was easier to fireform.

LR-55

[cosh]

When I couldn't find Grendel brass or ammo, I bought new 7.62x39 and pulled it down. I have 7.62x54R so I used the bullets for plinkers on that cartridge. I sized the new 7.62 brass in the Hornady die and loaded with new powder.

I don't see used "brass" cases at the range, only steel case which I prefer not to use. Have a couple reloads and doing OK with the brass, was using Red Army brass cases but those aren't anywhere to be found either. Sometimes found Grendel brass for reloading and snagged a couple hundred. Much easier.