Range Report - 120SMK over 8208XBR & 120Gold Dot AA2520 - 18" Liberty Barrel

[JDub]

So these are my first batches of handloaded 6.5 Grendel. It's good to be back in the reloading scene after a 20 some-odd year hiatus.

Barrel Specs - 18" Midway ARStoner MLGS SS 1:8 suspected Liberty/Satern Barrel (circa 2014). I just installed an H3 buffer and Wolff extra power buffer spring to see if that might remedy the flattened primers and occasional ringing incipient case/head separation I was seeing in factory 123gr. AMax loads (TL;DR, it did not). Did I mention it's a carbine buffer?

Chrony - Magnetospeed Sporter.

I'm mostly not going to provide group size info because I let my son drive all day...don't want jr. to get bored...and he's a newbie with a rifle. He tells me if he doesn't like the POI he just shifts his POA...oi!

I did get behind the trigger for a couple of groups but not many.

123gr. Factory Amaxes - 1.66" CBTO FYI (how does one pluralize Amax?). I pulled a bullet from one of these and measured the charge to be 29.7gr of something that looks a lot like AA2520 (the world may never know).

High - 2615fps
Low - 2557fps
Avg - 2585fps
SD - 19
Flattened primers, occasional ejector swipes. Published MV is 2580fps from what I can only assume is a 24" barrel. So these loads are HOT for a 18" tube. I don't know that I'd feel comfy shooting these all the time.

120gr. SMK/8208XBR/CBTO 1.7"/Hornady once-fired brass/CCI 450

26.4gr. - 2389, 2439, 2423, 2419
26.7gr. - 2477, 2449, 2447
27.0gr. - 2487, 2501, 2500
27.3gr. - 2509, 2523, 2522
27.6gr. - 2536, 2533, 2540 (I shot these and achieved 1.0MOA)
28.0gr - 2581, 2595, 2580 Flattened primers, light ejector swipes(I shot these and achieved 1.2MOA)

120gr. Speer Gold Dot/AA2520/CBTO 1.67"/Unfired Starline brass/CCI 450 (I REALLY wanted to get up to 30.0gr hence the .5gr increments)

28.0gr. - 2452, 2441, 2397, 2417
28.5gr. - 2438, 2494, 2472, 2469
29.0gr. - 2515, 2512, 2537, 2515
29.5gr. - 2580, 2560, 2556, 2558 - primers starting to flatten out but no cratering, no ejector swipes, smallest group Jr. shot all day, sub MOA
30.0gr. - 2593, 2587, 2596, 2592 - flattened primers, minor ejector swipes, some rounds had ringing at the case head - so too hot. Shouldn't have let my son shoot these. He needs his face a lot more than I do!

So what did I learn?

1. I'm getting some damn good velocities out of this barrel (97F in Socal today). If I didn't make a notation, I saw no pressure signs. Velocities seemed to scale linearly.
2. Maybe I need to back off my charge weights but my accuracy node seems to be in the mid to high 2500fps range.
3. Starline brass is thicc.
4. AA2520 from the 90s is still good.
5. I need to measure my chamber.

I've watched a ton of Johnny's reloading bench and lurked around here for years and my velocities seem to be kinda high...like way high.
I'm NOT experiencing malfs of any sort. (I'm catchin' my brass in a catcher so I'm not sure at what angle it's ejecting).

I know good velocities are like a drug and I'm high as a kite. Do I need to come to my senses and back off? I mean I'm getting 2500fps no prob with no pressure signs in an 18" tube.

Anyways, I'm totally happy to be back and want to thank you guys for all your advice and posts. Way back before I dove in I was on the fence between 6.5G and 6.8 and you guys showed me the light. Now back to the reloading bench.

[Rosecrans1]

You said it. Start you loads much lower and use published load numbers. The Grendel does not show pressure signs until you are past acceptable pressures. And 8208XBR will spike to high heaven so 0.2 grain ladders are much safer. Otherwise, I'd say it looks like you're back in the saddle!

[glk45]

So these are my first batches of handloaded 6.5 Grendel. It's good to be back in the reloading scene after a 20 some-odd year hiatus.

Barrel Specs - 18" Midway ARStoner MLGS SS 1:8 suspected Liberty/Satern Barrel (circa 2014). I just installed an H3 buffer and Wolff extra power buffer spring to see if that might remedy the flattened primers and occasional ringing incipient case/head separation I was seeing in factory 123gr. AMax loads (TL;DR, it did not). Did I mention it's a carbine buffer?

Chrony - Magnetospeed Sporter.

I'm mostly not going to provide group size info because I let my son drive all day...don't want jr. to get bored...and he's a newbie with a rifle. He tells me if he doesn't like the POI he just shifts his POA...oi!

I did get behind the trigger for a couple of groups but not many.

123gr. Factory Amaxes - 1.66" CBTO FYI (how does one pluralize Amax?). I pulled a bullet from one of these and measured the charge to be 29.7gr of something that looks a lot like AA2520 (the world may never know).

High - 2615fps
Low - 2557fps
Avg - 2585fps
SD - 19
Flattened primers, occasional ejector swipes. Published MV is 2580fps from what I can only assume is a 24" barrel. So these loads are HOT for a 18" tube. I don't know that I'd feel comfy shooting these all the time.

120gr. SMK/8208XBR/CBTO 1.7"/Hornady once-fired brass/CCI 450

26.4gr. - 2389, 2439, 2423, 2419
26.7gr. - 2477, 2449, 2447
27.0gr. - 2487, 2501, 2500
27.3gr. - 2509, 2523, 2522
27.6gr. - 2536, 2533, 2540 (I shot these and achieved 1.0MOA)
28.0gr - 2581, 2595, 2580 Flattened primers, light ejector swipes(I shot these and achieved 1.2MOA)

120gr. Speer Gold Dot/AA2520/CBTO 1.67"/Unfired Starline brass/CCI 450 (I REALLY wanted to get up to 30.0gr hence the .5gr increments)

28.0gr. - 2452, 2441, 2397, 2417
28.5gr. - 2438, 2494, 2472, 2469
29.0gr. - 2515, 2512, 2537, 2515
29.5gr. - 2580, 2560, 2556, 2558 - primers starting to flatten out but no cratering, no ejector swipes, smallest group Jr. shot all day, sub MOA
30.0gr. - 2593, 2587, 2596, 2592 - flattened primers, minor ejector swipes, some rounds had ringing at the case head - so too hot. Shouldn't have let my son shoot these. He needs his face a lot more than I do!

So what did I learn?

1. I'm getting some damn good velocities out of this barrel (97F in Socal today). If I didn't make a notation, I saw no pressure signs. Velocities seemed to scale linearly.
2. Maybe I need to back off my charge weights but my accuracy node seems to be in the mid to high 2500fps range.
3. Starline brass is thicc.
4. AA2520 from the 90s is still good.
5. I need to measure my chamber.

I've watched a ton of Johnny's reloading bench and lurked around here for years and my velocities seem to be kinda high...like way high.
I'm NOT experiencing malfs of any sort. (I'm catchin' my brass in a catcher so I'm not sure at what angle it's ejecting).

I know good velocities are like a drug and I'm high as a kite. Do I need to come to my senses and back off? I mean I'm getting 2500fps no prob with no pressure signs in an 18" tube.

Anyways, I'm totally happy to be back and want to thank you guys for all your advice and posts. Way back before I dove in I was on the fence between 6.5G and 6.8 and you guys showed me the light. Now back to the reloading bench.

Out of my BHW 18" Shooting Hornady Custom 123 SST i was getting 2450 fps. 123 SST's Horn. brass CCI 450's AA2520 @ 30.5 seated 2.295 gave me 2435 fps no pressure signs. Grouped at 3/4 MOA.

[VASCAR2]

[PVBoom]

I was wondering about the same, given the issues with factory ammo, which he was attempting to tame with buffer & spring changes. Overgassed to begin with?

[Redraider]

This is an almost exact repeat of the results years ago when "Liberty" (no Saturn) barrels were totally screwed with badly cut chambers........higher than expected velocities! Separate your upper, drop a round in the chamber, lightly push with finger to assure seated, turn upper upside down and the round better fall out on it's own! I had one, thank God I never got to shoot it. I really don't think those barrels should be linked in any way to the higher quality parent company barrels.

Redraider

[VASCAR2]

[JDub]

This is an almost exact repeat of the results years ago when "Liberty" (no Saturn) barrels were totally screwed with badly cut chambers........higher than expected velocities! Separate your upper, drop a round in the chamber, lightly push with finger to assure seated, turn upper upside down and the round better fall out on it's own! I had one, thank God I never got to shoot it. I really don't think those barrels should be linked in any way to the higher quality parent company barrels.

Redraider

So my barrel fails this test. Round pressed into chamber must be pried free.

Is a barrel with a short throat salvageable? Could I not just keep on shooting it with lower charges and avoid factory ammo altogether? It's not like this thing is spraying rounds all over the place. I feel like it's accuracy is that of a mid-tier tube.

[VASCAR2]

[JDub]

Thanks for the taking the time to relay your experiences with similar barrels and their outcomes. I spoke to Midway today and they said they only cover their barrels for a year, which I felt is fair. I bought it in 2012 and I don't feel they should be on the hook 8 years later.

Also, what I have planned for the rifle is to shoot high-power metallic silhouettes in a non-sanctioned, informal course of fire (which is on hiatus for who knows how long). So the highest levels of precision are not necessary since I'll be shooting offhand. That doesn't necessarily mean, however, that I wish to own a dud. If it's capable of a consistent 1.5 MOA, I'd be perfectly happy.

So that begs the question, how low do I go? I'd love to be in the 2500fps range so I can knock down those 500m Rams but also I don't want to blow my face off. Does the absence of pressure signs equate to safe pressures? I supposed I'll try to find an accuracy node in the 2400s somewhere.

My other problem is that I've zeroed my rifle but my windage is cranked all the way to one side which is not confidence-inspiring. I've got an old Leupold VX3 6-25X in ultra high rings sitting atop a 20MOA riser and am wondering how I'm going remedy that situation.

Anyways, I really appreciate all the responses and look forward to more Grendel load development antics.

[LR1955]

Thanks for the taking the time to relay your experiences with similar barrels and their outcomes. I spoke to Midway today and they said they only cover their barrels for a year, which I felt is fair. I bought it in 2012 and I don't feel they should be on the hook 8 years later.

Also, what I have planned for the rifle is to shoot high-power metallic silhouettes in a non-sanctioned, informal course of fire (which is on hiatus for who knows how long). So the highest levels of precision are not necessary since I'll be shooting offhand. That doesn't necessarily mean, however, that I wish to own a dud. If it's capable of a consistent 1.5 MOA, I'd be perfectly happy.

So that begs the question, how low do I go? I'd love to be in the 2500fps range so I can knock down those 500m Rams but also I don't want to blow my face off. Does the absence of pressure signs equate to safe pressures? I supposed I'll try to find an accuracy node in the 2400s somewhere.

My other problem is that I've zeroed my rifle but my windage is cranked all the way to one side which is not confidence-inspiring. I've got an old Leupold VX3 6-25X in ultra high rings sitting atop a 20MOA riser and am wondering how I'm going remedy that situation.

Anyways, I really appreciate all the responses and look forward to more Grendel load development antics.

JD:

Can't say much about your loads. Find one that is safe and accept the velocity. 18 inch is on the edge for 2500 fps with a 120 or 123.

You can get a finishing reamer and ream out the short throat but I wouldn't guarantee you success. The guys returned those barrels to Satern once we found out Satern made them. Took a long time to find out who made Liberty Stoner barrels.

As for your windage needing to be all the way over, not good and you will not have success with that condition. You need to figure out if the scope base and or rail(s) are off center from the barrel or if the barrel is mounted properly or if the bore is off center.

Remove the hand guard so you can see the barrel. With the optic secured to its rings, rings secured to the riser, and riser secured properly to the rail, put the rifle in a rest on the ground and stand over the stock and look straight down on the optic and compare its axis to the barrel. That much windage is enough for you to see if the optic is in alignment with the axis of the barrel. If the optic is off axis then either the rail or riser is off axis to the receiver or the barrel is installed poorly. Eliminate the riser by removing it and checking again. If it is still off axis then you need to check the alignment of the rail on the receiver and your rings. My bet is the rings or riser or the barrel was installed crookedly. However, periodically you find a bore off center to the axis of the barrel. Would not surprise me with a 'Liberty Stoner' barrel of that era.

LR55

[VASCAR2]

[Redraider]

JDub,

Do a search here of Liberty chamber problems and get a serious education(hours of reading), your barrel can be corrected with a SAMMI spec reamer by a good gunsmith, this is not necessarily an accuracy thing but a safety thing.

Redraider

[JDub]

Ooo yeah, I recently bought a Wheeler receiver lapping tool. I'll give 'er the treatment.

[JDub]

JDub,

Do a search here of Liberty chamber problems and get a serious education(hours of reading), your barrel can be corrected with a SAMMI spec reamer by a good gunsmith, this is not necessarily an accuracy thing but a safety thing.

Redraider

Short chamber, oversized gas port...oi vey!

From a cost perspective, I think I might be better off just purchasing a new barrel...probably in the $300 range. I've been wanting to move up to 20" as I won't be hunting with this and the tube that has all the features I want is a Faxon 20". It's fluted, 5R, 1:8, SAAMMI chamber and nitrided. If Johnny can get .4MOA from his Faxon, so can I...right?