How much does it Matter?

[Lemonaid]

I read this article on PrecisionRifleBlog. Look at the chart on what variables do to hitting the target at 1000 yards.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/06/09/how-much-does-it-matter-overall-summary/

A good range finder I can buy, any suggestions on best methods of improving wind calling ability?

[StoneHendge]

A good range finder I can buy, any suggestions on best methods of improving wind calling ability?

Practice practice practice. It's where .223 comes out to 500-600 comes in handy for me. More deflection to help refine the call and adjustment and longer (and cheaper) range days.

[LR1955]

I read this article on PrecisionRifleBlog. Look at the chart on what variables do to hitting the target at 1000 yards.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/06/09/how-much-does-it-matter-overall-summary/

A good range finder I can buy, any suggestions on best methods of improving wind calling ability?

Get a good spotter who knows how to read trace and does not rely on seeing dust kick up from a bullet. Way harder to find than you think. The guy will give you feedback on your shots which both of you can use to refine your wind doping process. He needs a quality spotting scope on a solid stand put if directly behind you and in line with your rifle, about three feet higher than your prone position. Assuming you will be shooting prone which I recommend in this case.

A good anemometer with a wind vane to show you speed and direction.

Determine how many minutes or mils a one MPH full value wind blows your bullet at 300, 600, and 1000 yards.

Hard part is to figure out what the wind is doing half or 3/4 the way to your target. You only know what is happening at your firing position so have to extrapolate that data down range.

Look around you at the terrain and at the mirage where you can pick it up between you and your target. It will tell you wind direction but is not good for speed. I do not advise you to trust doping speed by looking at mirage unless you have shot that area many times and learned it for that area. Mirage will tell you direction though but not value. Back to your firing position figure out if the wind is half, full, or no value.

Figure out the wind speed as if it were full value and given you know the distance and a constant for drift, simple math to figure out your hold or if you want to index windage.

Most Grendel ammo using match grade bullets shot at around 2500 will need about 1/2 minute per MPH of full value at 600 and one minute per MPH of full value at 1000.

Lets say you are shooting something at 680 yards. Wind at your firing position is averaging 6 at a half value from your 4 oclock. Look through your optic or spotting scope at the target and see if the mirage is blowing right to left as it is at your firing position. Most likely but not always. Anyway, most likely you will see the mirage running a little bit right to left so it confirms a right to left. Half value at 6 is a full value at 3. Half minute per MPH of full value at 600 and you need to hold right a minute and a half or about a half mil. Not perfect but I bet you get a hit to within two minutes providing you made a good shot and started with a good no wind zero.

What all this says follows.

First, you better have a rifle, optic, and ammo capable of holding 1/2 the size of the target you are shooting.

Second you must be extremely good at calling your shots because that is your feedback if things go right or wrong. I would say that 95% of shooters are incapable of calling their shots to a degree of precision needed to troubleshoot their performance. A guy who can't call his shot well has no clue if his wind dope was good or not.

Third, train yourself to reasonably figure out wind speed by how hard it is hitting you and its physical effects on things downrange. Guys do use mirage for wind speed but they are using it as a supplement to what they are noting at their firing position. Once you get over about 15 you really need to look at an anemometer in my opinion.

Forth is to have a simple process to come to a firing solution that you can figure out mentally in a matter of a second or two because the longer you wait for a hold and shot, the more likely the wind will die or shift direction.

Fifth would be to take the shot with confidence that you have done your absolute best in a wind call. Guys miss because their focus never got off the wind call and on to their shot. Call your shot to your observer and go from there.

Don't get anal about why you missed something. You either started out with a poor no wind zero, took a lousy shot, or failed to dope winds well enough for a hit. You ought to know if the shot sucked because you called your shot so if it missed, it should have missed in the direction the observer noted when he read your trace.

Go from there. It is not a particularly hard process but attention to the right details becomes the real trick sometimes.

LR55

[imaguy3]

I estimate my wind halfway to the target... wind speed at your location and at target location is kind of pointless as it has little bearing on the bullet.

I have had incredibly good results estimating the effects of wind about halfway and by using the Beaufort scale. Using it 2 yrs ago I correctly identified a strong 20mph full value wind and anchored a coues at 500 yards with a perfect behind the shoulder shot with my first shot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

[LR1955]

I estimate my wind halfway to the target... wind speed at your location and at target location is kind of pointless as it has little bearing on the bullet.

I have had incredibly good results estimating the effects of wind about halfway and by using the Beaufort scale. Using it 2 yrs ago I correctly identified a strong 20mph full value wind and anchored a coues at 500 yards with a perfect behind the shoulder shot with my first shot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

Little guide given out in sniper school to assist in estimating wind. Decent for bracketing but not great for the sort of precision needed to hold a two minute target repeatedly at distances from 600 and beyond.

I will not belittle your great shot but 500 yards is not a particularly difficult range for most rounds of ammunition. There is a pretty big and frustrating difference in performance between 500 and 600. Bigger still past 600 unless a guy can choose the terrain and when he will be shooting that he has as little wind as possible without a lot of mirage.

Learning how to dope winds is not particularly difficult but one thing is a must and that is that somehow a person must know the true wind speed and true direction to check his doping. Ideally he would have an anemometer at his firing position AND about 3/4 the distance down range to his target but that is not possible unless he wants to spend a bundle. What is possible is a anemometer at his firing position and from that he can at least know exactly what the wind is doing there. From a known point he can then extrapolate as he sees fit.

Not here to argue -- yes -- knowing the wind speed half or 3/4 the distance to the target is ideal, just not particularly accurate and sometimes impossible.

Shoot over a very deep ravine or valley where your trajectory is over a hundred feet above the ground from your firing position to within about fifty yards of your target. You go with what you got and in this case I would probably add another ten percent to the wind I got at my firing position or from swaging something I saw at the target. Just the way it works out most of the time so train for it.

LR55

[Lemonaid]

Thanks! great info LR1955. Suppose I wanted to improve my skills by being a spotter (saves on ammo for me!), any tips for a new spotter? It seems only fair to trade off shooter and spotter roles.

[LR1955]

Thanks! great info LR1955. Suppose I wanted to improve my skills by being a spotter (saves on ammo for me!), any tips for a new spotter? It seems only fair to trade off shooter and spotter roles.

You will learn more about doping wind as a spotter than a shooter but only if the shooter is a very good shot. I bet you own a top end spotting scope and by using a very, very good spotting scope you will be able to see things the shooter can't with his optic. Like detailed mirage for example.

Remember that you are learning so set up the range according to your experience level and goals for that day. Nothing wrong with some rebar and that plastic marking tape that people use to mark trees and such, and put up some wind flags at various places down range. They really help in seeing wind direction down range and that is important for you when spotting. It is a second indicator of wind direction, your first being mirage. Having one or two close to your firing position is good too because then you can see if the wind is keeping its direction down range. When in doubt though, I go with mirage.

If you are just starting out as a two man team, it will take some time for both of you to communicate so each other understands your individual nuances. So the first couple of times out you will spend a lot more time with dialogue than shooting and assessing performance.

Process? What you can do is to find a target and dope the wind then get your shooter on to the target. You can go one of two ways from there. You can give the shooter the hold and let him shoot your wind call or you can let him figure out a solution and let him shoot his wind call. Sniper teams the observer gives the hold, the shooter shoots and calls the shot. It would be a decent learning experience for you to let your shooter figure out a solution and compare yours and his after the shot. Then you will see the limitations of a shooter in the prone doping winds through his optic compared to you sitting comfortably upright using a spotting scope that is capable of seeing nuances in indicators down range. However, the vast majority of shots will be based on your wind call.

I make up some 8 1/2 X 11 card stock data pages with drawings of the various targets I use and some marginal data and when spotting for a person I keep records. Even if the shooter hits a steel, he wants to see where his shot went so I can lean over and show him. This helps a huge amount when it comes to assessing marksmanship performance and such things as range estimation and wind calls. I constantly look for indicators the guy has a very good zero. Most don't have a no wind zero to save their lives so I end up having to find it by a process of using a target at a known distance on the range and working that target until the shooter can get a reasonable no wind zero and a good elevation. It can become somewhat a nightmare if the person can not call their shots. Trust a shooters call to the extent that the trace and hits go pretty much where he called. Note that on steel it is difficult to see precisely where the bullet impacted. Keeping a record sheet and plotting shots is a real eye opener when it comes to performance on steel at unknown distances. I normally have one target at 300 and one at 500 that are known distances just to work zeros when needed.

I think the big thing is to have goals and a plan before venturing into this sort of thing. Nothing wrong with your goals for the first training day or two to be focused on developing a decent firing position and very clear and efficient dialogue between the shooter and you. When working in two man teams a gigantic issue is dialogue. Normally too much that is disjointed and convoluted. Figure it out and refine it to what you need for a good shot and follow on shot if that is needed. Work your way through the process and wind doping is only part of it on a field fire. You got to get the guy on the target efficiently and quickly, get a range, dope winds, make the shot, spot the trace, get a call and do a follow up if the shooter missed. The shooters call becomes essential to your corrections if any are needed. Targets don't need to be way out there until you can read trace way out there. I would start with an array from 200 to 550 yards and work that array until you and your shooter get your dialogue down, you can spot trace to within about two minutes on the steels and you can actually use your record book to improve your dialogue and performance. Probably some round auto poppers at 200 and 300 then some IPSC Sils from 300 to 550. Get smooth first then push the steels out to what ever range you can where you can see trace and splash. Good luck past about 800, particularly if the winds are up and the sun is bright.

Man, that burned up some memory. No, I did not go into some things that others may say is important. Not now. Dialogue, range estimation, wind doping, spotting trace, calls, recording what is important at your stage and then assessing your performance to perfect your communications and skills. That's plenty. Make your own goals and standards but just keep them within the realm of rational.

LR55

[Cereal Thriller]

I never had a bad day of shooting, some days are better than others.

Out at 1200 yards several weeks ago and had a beautiful steady 3 to 4 MPH tail wind. Hitting the steel was pretty consistent and gave me some good data. Today I was at 1000 yards and the wind just beat me up. Had multiple cross winds from bench to target and I just gave up, no need to waste the ammo. Should have gave up sooner than I did, but tuberous persisted.

My son pulled out his 5.56 and plinked @ 500 yards, I attempted to hit the steel with my AR9 and got one lucky hit out of 15.

[tdbru]

Lemonaid,
Get Bryan Litz books. He has authored several and i find good info in all of them. He has good info on reading wind. also another highly regarded book is "The Wind Book for Rifle Shooters" by Miller and Cunningham. of course you have to practice in the wind, but these books help you break down what and how to practice so you're not just guessing but have an idea of what to look for and why. i will confess, wind, so far, is one of my Nemesis. i just don't get enough range time to be thorough with learning wind reading. and i'm saving for a kestrel too. it'll help but isn't a magic potion of course. Go online to the various ballistic programs and feed in wind info for what you're shooting and try different velocities and angles. this will help to start to give you a feel for what the wind does to the trajectory.

some gems from Bryan's books:
wind isn't constant from the ground up to the apogee of the round. there's typically a velocity gradient. the further you shoot, the more that is coming into effect.
if there's a depression or a rise between you and the target, you could have vertical components of wind.
at long range aerodynamic jump comes into play in the wind. this causes a + or - vertical component to wind shooting depending upon twist direction and wind direction.

also the wind book shows you how to start to read mirage to gauge the wind.

consistent ammo, a precision rifle, and a good wind call. when everything finally lines up for you. :-)

-tdbru

[Lemonaid]

More great info! I'm going to copy this data into a wind doping file for easy reference. I really appreciate your time and effort you put into your posts (Great stuff LR1955!), they help out a lot! I would venture to say a great many of us in the vile horde can benefit from your advise.

[Lemonaid]

tdbru, I was just looking at the Bryan Litz book from the link in the PrecisonRifleblog article, very tempting. Good suggestion for a family member wanting a gift idea for me, could also use a laser range finder, Kestrel, good quality spotting scope, some cci 450 primers, Barnes 120 Match burners, some AR comp, cure for covid 19..... Got carried away there!

[Mad Charlie]

tdbru, I was just looking at the Bryan Litz book from the link in the PrecisonRifleblog article, very tempting. Good suggestion for a family member wanting a gift idea for me, could also use a laser range finder, Kestrel, good quality spotting scope, some cci 450 primers, Barnes 120 Match burners, some AR comp, cure for covid 19..... Got carried away there!

All necessities though.

Great info here, wind is what beats me up at longer ranges. In my situation at the time, I don't have much chance to shoot long range even just to practice and learn.

Thanks for opening the thread Lemonaid.

[Klem]

For me the most important down-range influence is wind.

It's all good if it is predictable but when it spoils or is intermittent, that's when it gets untidy. Strength is less important than consistency. We have a range where the wind comes in off the ocean and it is strong but consistent. Once you have dialed on it is manageable. But when wind comes from the opposite side over land it is less but varying and more difficult to shoot in. Shooters are shooting faster strings when the wind spoils for fear it will change during the string. When it is consistent they take their time and wait for the same conditions to shoot the next shot.

I use flags, spinners (if they are available), tape, trees, sand trickled from fingers while standing, wind on face, and the long lanyard on the Kestrel as a wind indicators. Mirage also but I can never tell direction with this, only strength. I look for indicators in the direction of the wind, i.e upwind. Indicators downwind are too late, it's passed.

I have a template on Powerpoint for wind cards, here's an example. 8 different wind strengths for the same bullet. Back to back and laminate, or print out and throw in a pocket. I find it helpful because you can see the windage for if the wind changes direction or strength. It complements the Kestrel and you're not in a position to use a Kestrel all the time or if the batteries fail.


Each card is divided into four separate wind speed scenarios. So you only use one of the arcs corresponding to the wind speed at the time, but that still gives you all the angles through to full value 90 degrees. it works for me.

[LR1955]

Lemonaid,
Get Bryan Litz books. He has authored several and i find good info in all of them. He has good info on reading wind. also another highly regarded book is "The Wind Book for Rifle Shooters" by Miller and Cunningham. of course you have to practice in the wind, but these books help you break down what and how to practice so you're not just guessing but have an idea of what to look for and why. i will confess, wind, so far, is one of my Nemesis. i just don't get enough range time to be thorough with learning wind reading. and i'm saving for a kestrel too. it'll help but isn't a magic potion of course. Go online to the various ballistic programs and feed in wind info for what you're shooting and try different velocities and angles. this will help to start to give you a feel for what the wind does to the trajectory.

some gems from Bryan's books:
wind isn't constant from the ground up to the apogee of the round. there's typically a velocity gradient. the further you shoot, the more that is coming into effect.
if there's a depression or a rise between you and the target, you could have vertical components of wind.
at long range aerodynamic jump comes into play in the wind. this causes a + or - vertical component to wind shooting depending upon twist direction and wind direction.

also the wind book shows you how to start to read mirage to gauge the wind.

consistent ammo, a precision rifle, and a good wind call. when everything finally lines up for you. :-)

-tdbru

Aerodynamic Jump. Damn. Forgot about that one. A real killer for a guy shooting steel at unknown distances across broken terrain under time constraints.

My suggestion to guys who want to learn how to dope wind is to avoid the aerodynamic jump and spin drift stuff for now and become very good at the elemental, wind speed, direction, and solution part. Learn how to read mirage, when a anemometer is of value and when it is totally unnecessary, and how to read trace accurately and confidently.

LR55

[Lemonaid]

Thanks Klem, I need all the help I can get! The closest 1000 yard range to me is about an hour away so most of my shooting is at our local range that maxes out at 300 yards. The more prepared I can get before going long the more productive I hope to be while there.