Anyone come up with a action Cycling Subsonic Load yet

[Rapier]

Hum, I did not think about the water jugs, as I do not drink anything in gallon jugs any more. But I did think about trying wet newspaper to see what actually happens, as to penetration and expansion. Sounds like another reason to shoot more.

Regards the .267 bullets, that is the actual measurement I get, I do not alter them in any way and seating them to 1.794 is required to get functional cambering in my gun due to the bore diameter being .264 The bullets actually will not fit in the throat past the round nose. I have shot oversize bullets before in experiments and can tell you they look quite normal if within .003 over the bore diameter. Actually you are talking about a .0015 per side reduction and moving something 1.5 thousands is pretty negligible for what we are doing and at the pressures we are using. But it does give the burn in the case a millisecond delay as the bullet is swagged. Note here: if the nose is at/in the bore and the base is in the case, the case neck keeps the bullet centered as it feeds into the bore under pressure. This creates an acceptable accuracy for short distance but, I would not want to try to hit anything much past 100. I am a firm believer in base of bullet to base of neck for best accuracy.

Little changes make a lot of difference in the Grendel and the pressure curve's timing is critical for function in my opinion. That is why my barrel length and tube type is so important. TX could not get my load to function his gun, at least with the .264 bullets, as he is using a longer barrel. I suspect the function has everything to do with the pressure pulse at the gas port and the pressure pulse point changes with different powders.

The only reason TX and I were talking about a duplex load was to possibly use the slow powder as a case filler to try to reduce the ES in these loads. The SD at the current level is OK, but the ES is higher than I would like as I would really want to have the entire string be closer to a stable 1,100 fps. However as TX noted, if the slow powder does not burn, as has been his experience, it is the same as using a buffer that is not combustible. In such a case with the gas gun, it would not take too many shots before you are out of business with the entire gas system plugged up.
Ed

[sneaky one]

Thanks for the info Rapier, I just found some Horn. ( .264) 160 Interlocks locally. I have a 50-60 pack of old Carcano .268- 160's around here somewhere too. Awesome job to both of you on all the experiments, and shared findings. Coming at this from 2 different ways, and bullet wts. is fun to watch. I think I like the .264 & 8208 version, for now-- I could transfer to a 140 hotcor-deepcurl easily from there too. Many on here would like a loading in that wt. The h2o jugs work to capture, I'm moving on to porkribs, (cheap past sale date units -to save a buck, and any beef pork ?? they throw out) I know a butcher at Cub, and a few other local stores -to make a fake deer ribcage-with organs inside idea- wrap it in saran wrap-then a garage sale $1.00 old leather jacket-should be close to a deer body-broadside shot., to get a better idea of what really happens upon the game animals-and to test diff. bullet wts. & speeds. I will try the .268 units when I find them. This is so fun. Keep up the great work Ed., Thanks. Dan.

[Rapier]

I wish I could ask you guys a question and get you answers before telling you about this, but alas, it is email, a forum and it is what it is. I discovered I had a lack of material to use as a test bed, our little newspaper here would not produce enough newspaper to do anything with in a month, no water gugs, etc. So I came up with an idea based on all of the phone books being put out right now, I had plenty of these.

I took 11 of our small town phone books, and stacked them. The stack measured 11 1/2 inches thick. I decided to use dry books, as I knew from prior tests, years ago, dry paper allows the nose of the bullet to gather layers and is more difficult to penetrate. The phone books, had the front and back pages, thick paper, plus refrigerator magnets attached to each book. I stacked the boks against a dirt bank, the books were not taped, but were stacked solid.

How many inches of phone book do you think the 160gr 6.5 bullet penetrated at 1,054 fps?

I should have remembered my experiments with the 156gr Cacarno bullet in 1968. At the time I lived in NH and had known Dick Riley, later to be the President of the NRA, for many years. I bought a custom 6.5x06 from Dick in early 68. One day while in his shop Dick said to me, you have a 6.5 don't you, yep, well why dont you take a handful of those pulled bullets and see what you can do with them. The accuracy was about MOA so I started testing penetration. The first thing I shot was a 36 inch plus, in diameter, huge fresh cut spruce tree stump. I think that bullet is still going. Then I progressed to car tire rims and ended up with three rims on edge, rims touching, shot end to end. That bullet threw up a guyser of dirt after it went through 6 layers of each rim and kept on going without deviating from its path.

Back to the phone books, the 160 went through all 11 1/2 inches of books, leaving an exit hole 1 inch in diameter at the back. It tore through the last book carrying layers of paper with it. It never tumbled. Then I dug the bullet out of the bank, 6 inched deep, in the dirt. It penetrated straight in and did not deviate in the dirt either. Attached is a picture of the bullet. Pretty impressive penetration for something going so slow. however, I have said this before, the trick is to get the 160 moving and once you do, it is hard to stop.

I would reccomend that you make very sure of your backstop when and if you shoot something with the 160, as it may well not stop in your target.
Ed

[JASmith]

Seems like magic!

I wonder how similar sectional density bullets in .308 would work? That would be a bullet weighing close to 220 grs. I seem to remember that there's a number of sub-sonic loads for that weight and caliber.

Back to topic -- this is an intriguing quest. The gas port being so far out in the rifle-length barrel makes it difficult to get enough impulse without pushing the bullet too fast. That might explain why the short barrel guys have a better chance at getting subsonic and cycling the action.

I have seen some cast bullet designs that appear to have a long bore-riding nose so that the bullet can be very long indeed. Creating a mold can be expensive, but one could make enough brass bullets with a lathe to see if it could work. Of course the cast bullet would be the shortest for the weight.

[txgunner00]

Back to topic -- this is an intriguing quest. The gas port being so far out in the rifle-length barrel makes it difficult to get enough impulse without pushing the bullet too fast. That might explain why the short barrel guys have a better chance at getting subsonic and cycling the action..

The rifle length port was my biggest challenge to getting my loads to cycle. After trying about a dozen different powders I finally found that the same powder I use for my full power loads works with 100% reliability.

I also did some terminal testing myself yesterday shooting milk jugs full of water. The results were impressive. As soon as I can edit the videos and pictures I'll post up the results.

[Rapier]

Hey TX,
Sounds like we got to the extension of the project at the same time. Did you get your crono data to work out at 100% sub-sonic?

It would be great if we get a CAR load and a Rifle load to work out of this.

I was a little concerned about a head shot on a big boar hog, but no more. Now I just am concerned about stopping the bullet. But one thing is for sure, a lung shot might not kill a hog dead, instantly, but just like an arrow behind the shoulder, he is a dead piggy, regardless. I still like the neck shot idea but the bullet will probably go right through the neck.
Ed

[burnsome]

Great info and thanks for the reports. I was very surprised when i got to testing my 308 subsonics and the penetration they produce. 180gr soft points generally dont deform much even when shooting through wood. mine penetrates 4 to 6 inches of wood and keeps on going.

[txgunner00]

I did get chrono data. I'll post that up soon also.

After seeing what these bullets did to the water jugs and other objects I've shot I have no doubt about their effectiveness against medium sized game. Penetration is awesome but I don't think these bullets will expand reliably. However, they did leave evidence of tumbling after about 6"-8" of water. Considering these bullets are nearly 1 1/4" long that's one heck of a wound channel.

[txgunner00]

Decent enough results for my purposes. The Rem 9 1/2 primed loads produced lower ES numbers but the CCI 250 primed brass came out cleaner (see pic below).

[txgunner00]

[sneaky one]

TX, and Rapier--Hat's off to you guys! Awesome work on the subsonic loads-and all the time spent. My goal is to hunt southward,hopefully I can use this data -w/ a can there?

[txgunner00]

TX, and Rapier--Hat's off to you guys! Awesome work on the subsonic loads-and all the time spent. My goal is to hunt southward,hopefully I can use this data -w/ a can there?

Thanks.

You can in Texas! For now you can only use it on non-game animals but that rule was just changed. New reg. allowing suppressors for all animals take effect in September. WOOHOO!

[txgunner00]

Here's a vid of the after math from shooting a line of milk jugs. I have a vid of the actual shot but the file is corrupted.

You can see the bullet is tumbling in the second jug. It penetrated 4 jugs and yawed out the side but I believe it would have gone through all seven if it stayed straight.

this link is to the same video but I included it if you have trouble watching the embedded vid.

http://youtu.be/K6fdFjuFH7w

[txgunner00]

Here's the remaining jugs.

http://youtu.be/1Ipxvz61J00

I need to build something to capture the bullet.

[txgunner00]

A few rounds on a steel plate.

http://youtu.be/1Ipxvz61J00