New load help

[Klem]

Not to mention bullet stability, and bullet quality.

I regularly see large group sizes, or no change in size with low MV SD's. I assume, while velocities are consistent the barrel is pointing in a different direction each shot for some reason: me, or the ammunition, or conditions, or barrel whip, or something else. I also note with Stonehenge the inbuilt error in all chronographs, just waiting to send some well-intentioned shooter off on a wild goose chase.

I agree with the guys. The game we are in is predicting future results based on current results, hoping there is a high correlation between the two. Satterlee (note that by giving it a name it implies credibility) defies statistical logic before you even start. I don't believe a few shots over a chronograph is anything more than a few shots over a chronograph.

To the Satterlee faithful...Good luck reading the tea leaves.

[TropicalVibe]

You guys have given me a few things to consider and I will review the opinions you have presented. As for finding the golden node, what would you consider the potential charge weight deviation in that node? +/- .1, .2gr or more? Also, do you believe there are an abundance of high-end competitive shooters that load to high SD's for their competition load?

Regards!

[Klem]

You guys have given me a few things to consider and I will review the opinions you have presented. As for finding the golden node, what would you consider the potential charge weight deviation in that node? +/- .1, .2gr or more? Also, do you believe there are an abundance of high-end competitive shooters that load to high SD's for their competition load?

Regards!

TV,

I imagine that the best charge weights for a particular gun are more related to peaks and troughs on a graph that interpolates groups sizes or muzzle velocities (MV) for all loads in between the actual loads. We shoot a few loads in increments and graph the results on Excel and that program interpolates the relationship across all possible loads as a smooth curvy line. The peaks and troughs would be where the nodes are and probably not exactly on a load you tested, more like very near one however. So, whether it is 0.1 or 0.2 grain increments is more related to how confident we want to be where the peaks and troughs of the curve actually are. The more loads we do and the smaller the increments are between loads the greater our confidence. Obviously the precision of our weighing equipment is also a factor and will limit this. My RCBS electronic scales are in 0.1gn intervals but when I load for important competitions I sometimes pull out the old balance beam scales - for more precision and confidence. It depends then, on how confident you want to be because all this load development costs money, range time and barrel life.

This logic is similar to a scope calibrated in clicks, with intervals in whatever, Mils or MOA. The gun's zero is never exactly on the click. It will be some fraction between those clicks. If your gun is precise enough you will see the Mean Point of Impact fall between the clicks on your scope.

So, whether it is 0.1gn or 0.2gn is moot, it's all an interpolation of whatever ladder of loads you have and the finer you can get your increments the better. I use 1% increments of the max load, so around the 0.3gn mark in Grendel during work-ups. I look for the closest weight to the max that give the tightest groups. Then I might come back later with 0.1gn increments around that weight and call it a day. Always looking for the tightest average groups on a target and initially at 100 to eliminate wind. Then shoot at 400 and see what going on (400 because that's the furtherest I can shoot without having to get in the car and drive for a couple of hours).

No, I don't believe there is an abundance of high-end shooters shooting high [velocity] SD's, but there will be the odd higher SD that groups similarly to all the other lower SD's. I think we agree that lower SD's are preferred as it is an indicator of ammunition consistency. My point earlier is that there are limiting exceptions to this relationship. That you will occasionally shoot a lower MV SD but the groups will be larger than expected. Or shoot a higher MV SD and the groups are smaller than expected. Or high and low MV SD's and the group size do not change. This implies the correlation between MV SD and group size is not as high as we would hope. It's high enough that we strive to get low SD's but not definitive.

[Lemonaid]

DT, I love small groups and low SD's and try to make the best ammo I can. Look this chart from precision rifle blog. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/...erall-summary/
If the chart is right, I have been putting more time and resources toward areas that have much less effect on hit probability. The chart dose not include shooter skills which I think will also be more productive toward hits than very low SD's or group sizes.
My thinking is if it's a safe load and reasonably accurate, focus on the other factors that have big effects.

[Oryx]

MV SD alone is not the only factor for accuracy and a powder charge is not the only variable that affects the velocity SD. At ELR distances low MV SD plays a large factor in the vertical spread consistency.

Most people only load for short range within 200 yds, many for mid ranges and a few that actually load for long range results. Much of the the internet crowds intend long range and try to mimic some best practices for reloading, but don't regularly shoot LR and continue the load development process to get there.

A load development process really depends on you your needs (and definition of accuracy and consistency). A short range BR guy will likely do some things different than a LR or ELR BR guy, or a plinker that tries to follow someones process.

We all know in the quest for accuracy that there are a million variables and there are likely just as many levels of acceptable accuracy ... Load development is just one and has to start somewhere and with a consistent method... The Satterlee method is only a starting place to help limit the # of rounds to get there and was not intended to produce final accuracy. Further load development is still necessary.

Loading dev process can be as hot a topic as 9mm vs .45 cal for home defense!

[Dt219]

[Harpoon1]

The Satterlee method is only a starting place to help limit the # of rounds to get there and was not intended to produce final accuracy. Further load development is still necessary.

Exactly!

[Harpoon1]

You guys have given me a few things to consider and I will review the opinions you have presented. As for finding the golden node, what would you consider the potential charge weight deviation in that node? +/- .1, .2gr or more? Also, do you believe there are an abundance of high-end competitive shooters that load to high SD's for their competition load?

Regards!

https://youtu.be/oRXlCG9YZbQ

https://youtu.be/9FKq8Jj8YEI

[StoneHendge]

Loading dev process can be as hot a topic as 9mm vs .45 cal for home defense!

10mm, of course. One and done.

[Dt219]

One more. Does the bullet itself have anything to do with sd/es. Say I was getting horrible extreme spreads with the 95gr vmax and h322 Which I was, would changing the bullet have an affect on the numbers like powder and primers do ? I know it would have changes on paper one way or the other,

[Harpoon1]

One more. Does the bullet itself have anything to do with sd/es. Say I was getting horrible extreme spreads with the 95gr vmax and h322 Which I was, would changing the bullet have an affect on the numbers like powder and primers do ? I know it would have changes on paper one way or the other,

[StoneHendge]

One more. Does the bullet itself have anything to do with sd/es. Say I was getting horrible extreme spreads with the 95gr vmax and h322 Which I was, would changing the bullet have an affect on the numbers like powder and primers do ? I know it would have changes on paper one way or the other,

Weight variation and diameter variation will have an impact - lighter bullets will go a bit faster and vice versa. But the bullet is normally the core of any load and was chosen for it's particular attributes (including cost) so trying different powders is usually on the top of anyone's list if a particular combo doesn't work. With that said, I never got the 95 grain vmax to shoot out of my 22" JP with H322 or Benchmark so I gave up on it. But I've never really gotten any Hornady bullet to shoot better than the alternatives.....

[Harpoon1]

Weight variation and diameter variation will have an impact - lighter bullets will go a bit faster and vice versa. But the bullet is normally the core of any load and was chosen for it's particular attributes (including cost) so trying different powders is usually on the top of anyone's list if a particular combo doesn't work. With that said, I never got the 95 grain vmax to shoot out of my 22" JP with H322 or Benchmark so I gave up on it. But I've never really gotten any Hornady bullet to shoot better than the alternatives.....

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[Dt219]

[Harpoon1]