Annealing?

[Geezy]

[LR1955]

GZ:

You don't need to anneal it at all.

Get a good sizing die and keep the loads within published data and your brass will last a long time.

LR-55

[Harpoon1]

[tdbru]

Geezy,
part of the answer depends on just how much accuracy you're trying to wring out. the Palma/PRS guys in the club are trying to get SDs in the low single digits, and spend lots of $$$ on equipment to enable them to do so because it means less vertical dispersion at 1000 yards and beyond. Part of their steps is neck annealing to get as consistent and uniform bullet pull as possible. they also weigh each powder charge to the kernel. and about a dozen other things in the ammo prep process. and have $$$$ match rifles they're using that ammo in.

if you're only concerned about brass longevity, I'd anneal every 4th or 5th reload. i use to never neck anneal and sometimes if i worked up a load with a batch of cases and practiced a bit, to where i was at about 5 reloads, then load up the cases once more, and find other calibers to occupy my time, then get back to those reloads after they had sat a decade, i was losing 40% to neck splits on firing them. so between that and now shooting with a bunch of guys that have no problem cleaning a F-Open target at 600 yards, which is mid-range to them(200-20x on a 1/2 MOA X ring, 1 MOA 10 ring), which is not me, i'm still learning, and asking them a bunch of questions on ammo prep, they include neck anneal step with each reload to maximize ammo uniformity to minimize MV variation, i neck anneal at every reload now to try and maximize bullet pull uniformity. My ammo is not yet into the single digit SD range consistently, nor am i able to shoot nearly as well as they can. but i'm working on it.
-tdbru

[RetroJunkie98]

My experience is neck splits right around 5-6 reloads.

So for longevity, anneal every 2-3 reloads

[StoneHendge]

These were 4 shot groups in 5 year old 7x Lapua: velocity/sd/es. All were MOA or better with a Magnetto strapped on except for the last (likely because I knew it was too hot). Up to 9 x now and the only anneal was the one Lapua did in the factory.

IMG_20211202_223450_copy_562x357.jpg

The people I see in the supermarket wearing masks are convinced that helps something too. They'll also tell you that you should be doing it also!

(ducking)

[tdbru]

with Lapua, you're time between neck anneal is likely much longer on the reloading cycles than CBC or PPU or Remington or other lesser brands. otta be for the premium they charge.

up to you. depends on your goals and requirements. I have found it to reduce incidence of neck splits, and I can't see that it hurts my ammo mv SD either. if you're not pursuing bugholes or concerned about neck splits after many reloading cycles, don't bother with it. doing it is tedious.

regards,
-tdbru

[Klem]

Geezy,

If you only bump back 003" and don't get into the habit of hot loads then your cases will last at least 5 reloads, and maybe even 15 for quality brass like Lapua, without annealing.

I don't know how many more with annealing but it will improve neck tension consistency, which translates into accuracy. Be aware however that unless you are tack driving the consistency annealing brings will not be noticed.

[LR1955]

My experience is neck splits right around 5-6 reloads.

So for longevity, anneal every 2-3 reloads

RJ:

Before this latest annealing craze possessed a number of forum members, we would get fifteen to twenty shots on a piece of Lapua brass and eight or more on Hornady brass. PPU got four or five. The problem was that after a lot of firings, the primer pockets opened up too much for our liking. Rarely did we crack necks.

Lee Grendel dies will destroy Grendel brass by overworking them. An oversized chamber will reduce the life of the brass and particularly the neck. Poor case lube will not help the brass either. Using a crimping die is unnecessary if the sizing die and chamber are at least within SAAMI specs. A crimp die will overwork the necks. Hot loading will also wear the brass and probably faster than anything else I mentioned.

Lessons learned? Use a quality sizing die. Lee isn't. Buy a barrel from a known source. "Match" stamped on a barrel made in someones backyard in China doesn't mean 'known source'. Dillon, Hornady, RCBS spray lube is good. Most other lubes aren't. The Lee crimping die is unnecessary if the sizing die was made well. Lee sizing dies aren't. Thinking a Grendel will reach the velocities of a .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor means no brass life at all.

There was once a craze for Molycoated bullets and it lasted about ten years until shooters, including the best in the country, realized that the moly did not do a thing other than cost them more for every shot.

I am sure there is a correlation between annealing and improved performance. Just that it is probably very low and the only reason the best F Class guys in the world think it is working is that they may see a extra X or 10 enough for them to attribute it to annealing their brass. Not sure how often they do it but F Class guys are pretty much 'ate up' with OCD and if someone won a match with a five foot ribbon of orange tape sticking out of his butt, the next match half the line would follow suit.

I will recommend if someone wants to anneal that they buy a professional annealing machine. I doubt any of these improved SD's guys think they are getting from annealing are coming from the blow torch method.

LR-55

[Oso Polaris]

A few years back I bought an annealer and it sat on the shelf unused as I stared at it not convinced of its value. Finally, I decided to start using it. I reload a number of calibers including several wildcats. I use range brass for bulk reloads as well as donor brass for case forming.

As Klem and LR55 stated, majority of sportsman will never know the difference with their ammo annealed or not. For me, It allowed me to bring a group of mixed brass back to a known baseline to begin case prep. Where I see an immediate and significant improvement is during case forming... annealing makes a significant difference in workability of the brass for necking up or down cases.

From case perspective, it improves case life. From an accuracy perspective, it helps ensure consistent neck tension. In order to recognize the accuracy gain, you need a rifle capable of shooting .25" groups and the shooting skills to drive small groups. You will not distinguish the marginal benefit if using a factory barrel or hunting rifle. There are so many other ways to make greater improvement in accuracy (low hanging apples, such as better bullets, better dies, better load development, custom barrel, better trigger, etc. I think annealing ranks just above neck expander mandrel, but definitely below quality dies and press. The primer pocket seating depth and flashhole deburring are definitely at the bottom of the list

Since I have the equipment and it takes no effort I now use it on all of my brass. I look at it as taking a multi-purpose vitamin... I already eat fairly healthy, but it can't hurt. It's therapeutic watching the cases spin in the flame, while drinking a bourbon or scotch... in the garage.

[Happy2Shoot]

Oh boy, annealing.

Almost everyone has no fundamental understanding of what is going on.

Therefore it shouldn't be surprising that there are so many divergent opinions.

Cartridge Brass
Capture.JPG

The way I read this you need to be at least at 1100F do really do anything (hardness reduction and grain size growth).

Does anyone anneal at that temp?

For those that think that is too high for zinc look here.



As for the end result of bullets on paper? Who knows. When most don't do it the same way, or don't get hot enough.

[LR1955]

A few years back I bought an annealer and it sat on the shelf unused as I stared at it not convinced of its value. Finally, I decided to start using it. I reload a number of calibers including several wildcats. I use range brass for bulk reloads as well as donor brass for case forming.

As Klem and LR55 stated, majority of sportsman will never know the difference with their ammo annealed or not. For me, It allowed me to bring a group of mixed brass back to a known baseline to begin case prep. Where I see an immediate and significant improvement is during case forming... annealing makes a significant difference in workability of the brass for necking up or down cases.

From case perspective, it improves case life. From an accuracy perspective, it helps ensure consistent neck tension. In order to recognize the accuracy gain, you need a rifle capable of shooting .25" groups and the shooting skills to drive small groups. You will not distinguish the marginal benefit if using a factory barrel or hunting rifle. There are so many other ways to make greater improvement in accuracy (low hanging apples, such as better bullets, better dies, better load development, custom barrel, better trigger, etc. I think annealing ranks just above neck expander mandrel, but definitely below quality dies and press. The primer pocket seating depth and flashhole deburring are definitely at the bottom of the list

Since I have the equipment and it takes no effort I now use it on all of my brass. I look at it as taking a multi-purpose vitamin... I already eat fairly healthy, but it can't hurt. It's therapeutic watching the cases spin in the flame, while drinking a bourbon or scotch... in the garage.

OP:

Question for you.

Are you measuring the hardness of your brass before and after to see if the annealing is working?

LR-55

[Klem]

The way I read this you need to be at least at 1100F do really do anything (hardness reduction and grain size growth).

Does anyone anneal at that temp?

As for the end result of bullets on paper? Who knows. When most don't do it the same way, or don't get hot enough.

Happy,

I have a hand-held magnetic induction setup. There are a lot of opinions as to how hot it should be, but also how to tell when it is hot enough.

The induction method is definitely capable of melting brass if you leave it on for too long. We are talking seconds - so while 3 seconds might be enough to anneal properly, 9 seconds and it is a crumpled, destroyed case.

I use it on Grendel and 6.5x47 every shot. When you talk about whether it improves anything that is a damn good question. Bullet grip is probably the most noticeable change for me. The evidence is in the feel when seating bullets. You can feel the ductility has returned to the case - it is harder to seat bullets after annealing old cases which have been used a few times. While it takes a bit more force on the handle to seat a bullet in an annealed case I am also expecting (hoping really) that means it is being gripped harder. Harder gripped bullets is good for keeping them still while they are being bashed about when loading.

As for standard deviations, I have noticed no change with or without annealing. With no change in SD's I am also not noticing any change in accuracy on the target.

I have only started annealing recently. Early feedback is it does nothing on the target that I can see. For case longevity I was past the 10 reloads on Lapua without neck splits so the amortizing of the case-cost was getting pretty cheap anyway. I am thinking the only true worth of annealing in Grendel for me is gripping the bullet tighter.

[Oso Polaris]

From everything I have read and my own anecdotal experience, annealing does make a difference in neck tension. Like Klem, I can feel the difference with bullet seating.

If you are shooting the same lot of brass and reloading them in lock step then the performance of the cartridges should be consistent. Each case will have the similar case hardening and should perform similarly after each reload. However, if you are shooting cartridges with different shot counts then case hardness may vary resulting in some unpredictable results... was this case shot 2x or 7x. Depending on the rifle and shooter this may or may not be of consequence.

What I can tell you with certainty is that annealing make a huge difference during case forming. If you are doing minimal case forming, such as 223 to 223Ai or 223 to 6x45, then annealing isn't critical However, if you are necking up or necking down by more than .02" then annealing improves the process (amount of effort and final output). I case form 17-222 from 223 cases, which takes a number of neck reductions (4 steps). With new brass the first couple of reductions are easier as result of annealed case without and work hardening. Fired brass / range brass that is annealed in advance of case forming is only slightly harder then virgin brass. However, range brass (not anneal) results in plenty of failures and ugly cases. There are times when I drop the brass back into the annealer mid-way through the process to help easy transitioning the brass into the smaller neck diameters.

[Happy2Shoot]

Klem, I also notice a big difference in seating a bullet with annealed cases. Chamfering inside the case mouth seems less important. There are less case brass shaving bits on the press after a loading session.

Oso Polaris, I have necked up 30-06 to 35 Whelen and got 3 for 5 split cases and stopped. I then annealed my 30-06 cases and finished the rest of the 100 with no problems.

These are both examples of softness, which gets a moderate result early in the temperature rise. FGMM cases are incredibly soft. To replicate FGMM I'd think you would have to go a good amount hotter than 750F. If you want grain size growth for increased case life you need to get hotter than most go to. I've seen a few people online post their results online looking for improved case longevity. Their results were always little to no change. The last graft shows grain growth vs temp.