CFE 223 Difficulty?

[Snarf]

I'm trying to work up a load for my Howa Mini (20" HB) using 123 SST's and CFE223. This Mini is my 3rd Grendel (I also had 24" and 16" AR's) and I have never been able to get CFE223 to agree with me...

This rifle shoots my trusty 90 TNT/H335 load sub-MOA (the top 6 shot group is a new batch that I loaded at the same time as the 2.248 and 2.245 COL SST loads, the bottom 4 were an old batch of the 90's)

Ballistic-X-Export_TNT_90.jpeg

But I shot through a box of 123 SST's with CFE223 and my groups ALL look like shotgun patterns...

CFE Group Size Chart.jpeg

I thought I was doing everything right, I've always kind of loaded haphazardly but I did this workup a little more strategically... Shot 15 rounds in .2gr increments, found the flat spot in the velocities. Shot 5 round groups at the charge weights that yielded the flat spot and got a single digit SD right in the middle at 30.6gr.

CFE 223 LADDER.jpeg

Then I started trying to dial a COL, started at 2.260 because I had to start somewhere, and worked my way down in .003" increments to 2.245" and didn't get a group better than 1.5".

Thoughts? Should I use the rest of the box to go up in length? My Howa has a Jefferson Outdoors BDL style floorplate and 2.3" fits into the magazine but I figured I should try to run shorter rather than longer for more reliable feeding.

Is my process not sound? The SD/ES of this load is significantly better than the 90 TNT load and all the manuals put the COL right in the 2.245-2.25ish range.

Does my Howa just not like 123 SST's, or CFE223? That would be hard to understand, although the 24" Brownells barrel and the 16" Faxon Barrel I have haven't shot CFE 223 either...

The rest of the recipe is:
Several times fired Hornady brass, torch annealed
CCI 450
Charges thrown with a powder measure and trickled to finish

[dpete]

Your rifle may not like the SST bullets. There have been others that have said SSTs weren't the most accurate bullets they have shot.
Or the rifle doesn't like the SSTs with the CFE behind them. It could be one or the other, or both.
You could try going up in length as long as the mag allows it just to check that possibility and satisfy your curiousity.
My experience with CFE was that it is way too temperature sensitive for my use and for my Grendels I'm now sticking with 8208 XBR.
Your loading practice seems to work for your other loads so that probably isn't a factor.
If it was me I would change powder first and see where that takes you.

[DIANEB]

My rifle doesn't like the SST bullet... CFE223 works great with the 120gr, 123gr ELD, Sierra 123gr MK, Lapua Scenar
123gr, and the 120gr Barnes Match Burners bullets...
30.0 grains OAL 2.260...

[Longrange2]

[grayfox]

2475 to 2505 is the node area for the 20" howa. So I'd say your 30.6 is the load.
As for the 1.58 group which is the best one you show, could there be something else affecting group size I wonder.
The 123 has more recoil than the 90 gr.
What kind of stock setup do you have, and how heavy or light is the trigger. If you're using the plastic stock, it's pretty useless imo, this rifle needs a better stock to really free float.
And it is possible that the sst-your rifle don't get along, have you tried the 123 eldm, 120 nosler. Better yet get some 120 sierra hpbt and try them.
Eldm will work as a hunting load if that's your goal.
I have had trouble using the sst myself. I've switched to the 120 nosler and the 100 ttsx. I have plenty of cfe but for now I'm not using it either very much, these 2 - ttsx and either xbr or h335; and 120 nosler and AR comp, are my go-to's right now. for 20" ---

wait, I do have a load for the sst and eldm in CFE but for some reason the only place I find it is in my spreadsheet, don't recall being able to get the results I want from it, but I do have one. As for 20" my AR/20" is now "in the game" (120 nosler/ CFE and Ar comp both) but the howa is sitting on the sidelines, letting the AR stretch its legs.

Oh, one other note, sometimes a primer switch can get you better grouping, I've been using the federal 205 in the howa but 450's (cci) in the AR. Plus a field crimp for the AR.

There's a good group in there somewhere for the howa, but might not be that sst/cfe combo is all I'm sayin'.

[Snarf]

[Harpoon1]

https://youtu.be/QwumAGRmz2I

https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-33607572/documents/7f15a36e4a52403d9ac4e42ae6342116/The%20Tyranny%20of%20Statistics.pdf

[grayfox]

Downloaded this to read later. One thing near the end however caught my eye, as it is a key part of how I've been doing things.
Get a dispersion of shot-loads/MVs to cover your expected MV range, to get the curve (actually a linear curve fit) of MV vs charge load for that particular combo in that gun.
His variation study of shots-grs powder vs MV confirms that linear curve exists.
At that point I narrow myself into looking at the range of a more or less known node-velocity (OBT) for that barrel length. Chris Long theory. I have those nodes in an xls I developed.
That's why I earlier said that I think OP will find something that works in the 2475-2510 range for his howa-20" hb. Once you find an acceptable SD (I try for <10, ES in the teens), the remainder is to find a primer (if you have that option) and an OAL that gives the best groups.
Getting that curve for powder etc combo in YOUR gun is the key starting point.
I know other guys use other means, which is ok AFAIC... this is my way. Seems to work for me.

ps, in general a different bullet (same class), even a different powder (with a similar pressure curve and speed) doesn't affect this approach by very much.

[Snarf]

https://youtu.be/QwumAGRmz2I

https://storage.googleapis.com/wzuku...Statistics.pdf

[Harpoon1]

[Snarf]

You know now I think I recall hearing them say in that podcast that changing powders is really the only way to accomplish any major changes in load performance...

[Scrape hunter]

CFE 223 wouldn't shoot good out of my gun velocity all over the place tried 90 to 123 grain bullets .Went to xbr8208 and all was well for my gun.