Powder choices (among what I have lol) for 123 gr bullets

[v4lu3s]

I am working with an AR-15, Oden Works 20" DMR barrel, Odin Works BCG. I am shooting off a bipod, and have 3 years loading experience, with sub moa loads for 300 blk super sonic, 223 rem, 308 win and 7.62x39. I have the following rifle powders: Shooter's World Precision, CFE 223, BL-C2, H335 and CFE BLK.

Initially I have been working with CFE 223 since that seems to be a commonly used powder for 6.5 Grendel. Typically, my goal is to exceed the accuracy I can get with factory loads, and I am using Hornady 123 gr loads, the 123gr SST, 123gr ELD-M black box, and 123gr Frontier ammo as my basis. I am seeing about 1.5 inches at best with the ELD-M factory load, about 2 inches with SST, and just under 1.5 inches with the Frontier load. I have run ladders with the CFE 223 from 29-31.2 grains and tested OAL from 2.24 to 2.27 (max my magazines allow). So far my best has been a 31 grain 2.27 OAL load and I am currently using Hornady 123 gr ELD-M bullets, once I have that nailed I will test with SST for a hunting load

Today I managed my best group with the 2.27" oal and 31 grains, with a 5 shot group average of about 1.25 inches at 100 yards. That is acceptable, but frustrating compared to the under 1" (or much better) that I manage with other loads (I have a 150 gr Hornady interlock load that manages cloverleafs at 100 on 2 rifles over BL-C2).

I am not opposed to getting a new powder, but I sure would prefer to find a load that works with what I already use.

It would be amazing if someone has an Odin Works barrel that has used SW Precision, BL-C2 or H335 with good results to chime in with what worked for them. If not then any pointers on which powder to work with next? The CFE 223 is just not quite cutting it. Or am I best off just spending the money on that 6.5 Grendel load book that is often pointed to? My ultimate goal is 1 inch or less at 100 yards with a bullet that I can hunt hogs and whitetail with.

[Lemonaid]

If all the variables of gun, scope base, scope rings, shooting technique are solid, my next step would be to try different bullets. This link might be of use.

https://www.submoashooting.com/

[v4lu3s]

Thank you for the link thats a lot more in one place than i am used to seeing, not cheap but the small packs allow for decent testing without getting stuck with a pile of crap youcant use! I am looking at picking up some 120 Gr Sierra pro hunter AND gamechangers (but I can only find those 500 at a time..)

[TedBrewer5]

[grayfox]

Odin is a decent rack-grade barrel. I would look for best loads in eldm personally, of what you have.
And CFE is a good powder.
some questions.
1. Are you shooting over a chrony? If not you are shooting in the dark. which load combo gives you the best SD, somewhere 2475-2510 MV for the 123's in a 20" there is a sound, single digit SD. I say this after shooting lots of 120-123 class in 20" as well as other length Grendel barrels, all over my chrono.
2. You did not say what your trigger is. Barrel, trigger, optics. Having a good, 2.5-3# trigger will shave some variances off your groups.
2a. You don't say what your scope/mounts are, and whether you have verified them to be tight. Most times I think guys have it ok but it needs to be verified anyway.

3. For SST and sometimes Eldm, best lengths I have found are typically somewhere 2.245-2.265 (they don't mind the jump), so while your OAL is close to that, have you tried varying the OAL at 31.0 grs to see how the grouping responds. I do groups differing by 0.010 to see any discernable improvement/worsening, to settle on an OAL.
4. Finally, the gas/buffer lineup can sometimes cause unneeded bounce in the AR. How smooth is your bcg-buffer-spring-gas operation, this is more subjective as I don't know of an objective standard to measure it against...

If you doubt the ability of CFE and/or the bullets you are using, get some 120 SMK's and some Xbr (but CFE would also work). The 120 SMK is a very forgiving bullet, if it doesn't shoot for you then something in your overall system is wrong and needs fixing.

[v4lu3s]

Just before I saw this I got a notification from Powder Valley that the 120 grain Sierra Pro Hunters just came in stock.

1. Chrono is in the works. I appreciate that velocity range to be looking for.

2. SOLGW Competition trigger with 4.5lb springs. I have been thinking about swapping it out with one of my LaRue or Rock River 2 stage triggers from another lower. I am using a Burris Veracity PH 4-20x50 scope on a Midwest 20moa mount. The scope has level and cant sensors as well. I mount using an in/lb torque wrench, bubble and an electronic angle level. It is probably the best scope I own.

3. I we'll have to check my notes but off the top of my head I'm going to say I have not tested the range of overall length at 31 grains I believe that will be my next step. I'm waiting for a new caliper to come as my old school doll caliper that measured into the thousandths recently failed and I have been using a less expensive hundredths caliper.

4. I am using the BCM A5 style setup for buffer length, spring and 5.6oz buffer weight. I have also tweaked the adjustable gas block such that with no suppressor I have opened it just enough to cycle the action since with a suppressor I do obviously get more gas through the system.

[grayfox]

ok thanks.
Believe you can get a Franklin digital caliper (to 0.005 gr) or similar model for around $30 on amazon etc...
They work well, battery lasts fine.

edit to add: the pro hunters are kinda stubby, you'll need to set them in a bit. could be around 2.170-175 or so.

[v4lu3s]

Thank you good information to have. I'm kind of excited about the Sierra bullets because I recently bought the loading book for them and the first load I ran the recommended accuracy load with 300 Blackout and 125 grain Sierra match Kings and was immediately shooting under 1-in groups at 100 yards on a 10-in barrel sbr.

I was going through my notes and it looks like I will be doing a letter at 31 grains with various seating depths. Overall the Hornady Frontier Is the most consistent and accurate out of the 6.5.

I loaded 20 cartridges at 31 grains of CFE 223, with OAL of 2.24, 2.25, 2.26 and 2.27. Tomorrow I will bring those, and factory loaded Hornady ammo, the ELD-m Black box, SST, and Frontier. My targets have 4 squares and 3 circles. I will test 5 shot groups of each factory load into each circular target for baseline, then put a group of my handload into each square. I will not be using the suppressor at all to eliminate that variable. Pics of each target as well. I really keep hoping this is just a really rough barrel that needs a LOT of break in.

[LRRPF52]

Did you bed your barrel and is your receiver face square?

What optic and mount and are your torque values balanced on the fasteners and cross bolts?

How much torque did you apply to the muzzle device?

[v4lu3s]

Did you bed your barrel and is your receiver face square?

What optic and mount and are your torque values balanced on the fasteners and cross bolts?

How much torque did you apply to the muzzle device?

AR-15 platform with free floated rail, using a SOLGW upper receiver, I did not touch the receiver face, nor did I bed it. I can say that the fit between extension and receiver is MUCH tighter than any other rifle I have built, but during the SOLGW AR15 Armorer's course that I took they stated that the fit should be snug enough that the barrel and receiver will stay together without a barrel nut installed (as in it won't fall out). I am not seeing any particular pattern in one direction as far as accuracy being off so I am assuming that the squareness of the face is not a major issue (obviously assumptions can be wrong but I feel this is a safer than average due to any evidence). Hopefully not given the desire for quality that SOLGW seems to have.

I am using a Burris Veracity PH scope 4-20x50 on a Midwest Industries 20MOA Gen 2 mount, crossbolts to 45lbs and fasteners on the rings are 25 in lbs (all per MIS spec).

I did not measure torque on the muzzle device, I am using a YHM QD mount what uses shims to align it. I believe YHM recommends 30-40 lbs of torque though. But...since you ask I went and checked, it is at 30ft lbs.

[v4lu3s]

Factory SST max 2.8" spread at 100. Min 1 inch. Average 1.8 inch.

Frontier max 1.5 inch spread at 100. Min 0.3 inch spread. About 1 inch average.

31gr cfe at 2.24 oal max 4.25 spread 1.4 min.

2.25 1 in min 3.5 max anout 2 in avg

2.26 5.1 in max 1.95 min. About 3 in avg.

2.27 3in max 0.80 min 1.7 average.

Right now the very best groups I can get are right about 1 in with the frontier ammunition through the suppressor.

In comparison I have a 308 with a $100 ballistic Advantage Barrel that I shot a quarter inch group using the thermal scope at 100 yards which was surprising as it is a budget burst thermal and I didn't think the scope would allow such precision

[v4lu3s]

When I get home I will try to post a couple of images

[v4lu3s]

I will edit if needed...I forgot the box of ELD-M today, but I did test my ladder of OAL from 2.24, 2.25, 2.26 and 2.27. The 2.27 was the closest at slightly smaller grouping than the suppressed SST.
first pic is the factory SST shot through the suppressor.
Second is no suppressor.
3rd is no suppressor with the Frontier ammo.
4th is Frontier through the suppressor.

the last is my thermal hog gun in 308 at 100 yards, with the $100 BA barrel. It has a very long throat and to get that I had to seat the bullet shallow enough that I cannot use it in other barrels since it is into the lands at that point. I have loads that shoot like that with 308 150gr Hornady Interlock SP, 165gr Hornady 308 SST, both the SP and SST 123 grain 7.62x39, as well as 223 and 300 blk in various loads.

[Lemonaid]

v4lu3s, a good many of us here on the forum have struggled with accuracy. There is a point in your testing you must consider that further efforts will not get you what you want with the rifle/barrel you have and more tests are just a waste of money. One experienced forum members said something like: "If it doesn't shoot well with the Sierra 120's it won't with anything else."
Sub 1 moa Grendel's are not common from what I gather and the ones that can usually have premium barrels.
Good luck!

[v4lu3s]

I cannot disagree with you on that. It is frustrating though as I have barrels from Faxon, Wilson Arms, Ballistic Advantage, Anderson, APF, Trybe Defense ($190 upper that puts 7.62x39 handloads through the same hole and WWB in a 1.5 in group!) that all shoot at least 1 if not more loads into 1 inch or better groupings. I know Odin Works is a still a mid market rack barrel, but i had always regarded them as a step up. I have sold off Bear Creek barrels, as well as PSA barrels for only shooting 2 inch groups lol

btw is that sierra 120 a match bullet or the SP pro hunter?