Volume 2 - 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook

[KentuckyBuddha]

Hitting with a .22LR is undeniably better than missing with a .50 BMG, but I doubt that is the whole point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwtOBLrmLiw

It certainly seems an adequate amount of energy to get the job done. Since anecdotal evidence apparently trumps actuarial and longitudinal apparently. : )

[XcountryRider]

Hitting with a .22LR is undeniably better than missing with a .50 BMG, but I doubt that is the whole point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwtOBLrmLiw

It certainly seems an adequate amount of energy to get the job done. Since anecdotal evidence apparently trumps actuarial and longitudinal apparently. : )

Maybe the moose will hang out in the fenced pasture and let you walk up to 30 yards and shoot them perfectly broadside.

[LRRPF52]

Over 100,000 moose are killed each year in Sweden alone, some years as high as 130,000. In Finland, it varies from 20,000-60,000 killed per year.

6.5x55 Mauser is one of the most popular cartridges for that task in both countries, and has been for over a century.

Walter D.M. Bell was a famous elephant hunter who killed 1011 elephants, mostly with a 7x57 Mauser shooting brain shots with FMJ's, but also with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine, which has probably the closest performance to the 6.5 Grendel if you're looking for a legacy cartridge to compare.

6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer 18" Barrel
129gr SST 2300-2400fps
140gr SST 2300-2400fps
160gr 2000-2200fps

6.5 Grendel 18" Barrel
129gr SST 2200-2350fps
140gr Lapua Naturalis 2100-2200fps

He later had a Gibbs in 6.5x54mm Mannlicher made, and used it to harvest everything from antelope to giraffe in Africa, using soft point bullets. He was a huge proponent of being able to train with a soft recoiling, lightweight rifle that also had high-for-caliber sectional density projectiles, and dry-fired every chance he got while walking the plains, using both eyes open and a bead sight zeroed for POI in the center of the bead. I would highly suggest studying his life, as it is one of those adventures that you simply can't make up. It literally makes all of the action films one might have seen seem dull.

[XcountryRider]

Over 100,000 moose are killed each year in Sweden alone, some years as high as 130,000. In Finland, it varies from 20,000-60,000 killed per year.

6.5x55 Mauser is one of the most popular cartridges for that task in both countries, and has been for over a century.

Walter D.M. Bell was a famous elephant hunter who killed 1011 elephants, mostly with a 7x57 Mauser shooting brain shots with FMJ's, but also with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine, which has probably the closest performance to the 6.5 Grendel if you're looking for a legacy cartridge to compare.

He later had a Gibbs Mannlicher in 6.5x54mm made, and used it to harvest everything from antelope to giraffe in Africa, using soft point bullets. He was a huge proponent of being able to train with a soft recoiling, lightweight rifle that also had high-for-caliber sectional density projectiles, and dry-fired every chance he got while walking the plains, using both eyes open and a bead sight zeroed for POI in the center of the bead. I would highly suggest studying his life, as it is one of those adventures that you simply can't make up. It literally makes all of the action films one might have seen seem dull.

Yep and they are using high for caliber bullets with really awesome sectional densitys. I can dig a foxhole with a spoon but i would not say that foxhole digging is on the upper limits of a spoons digging capacity. I would pick up a shovel. Its the right tool for the job and the right job for a Grendel is medium and below game with the upper limits being Elk. Killing a moose with a Grendel is a stunt and not good ethical hunting practice. The 6.5mm has what it takes in high for caliber grains going faster than Grendel speeds that will reliably open. Of course a Grendel will kill a moose but its not the right thing to do.

[JASmith]

Yep and they are using high for caliber bullets with really awesome sectional densitys. I can dig a foxhole with a spoon but i would not say that foxhole digging is on the upper limits of a spoons digging capacity. I would pick up a shovel. Its the right tool for the job and the right job for a Grendel is medium and below game with the upper limits being Elk. Killing a moose with a Grendel is a stunt and not good ethical hunting practice. The 6.5mm has what it takes in high for caliber grains going faster than Grendel speeds that will reliably open. Of course a Grendel will kill a moose but its not the right thing to do.

We are all entitled to voicing an opinion. Yet, it seems that this opinion flies in the face of an awful lot of experience to the contrary. Remember Grendel velocities mean only that its reach is somewhat less than is attained with higher capacity cartridges. Ethics rears its ugly head when one tries to take a shot at longer ranges than good hits can be attained at velocities where the bullet expands.

[LRRPF52]

Maybe the moose will hang out in the fenced pasture and let you walk up to 30 yards and shoot them perfectly broadside.

In Finland, you typically see these types of hunting seats all over in the country. There aren't a lot of opportunities for long range shots on moose.



Having dug a lot of fighting positions and hide sites in my life, if you're smoked from carrying a broken down shovel from the hardware store in your rucksack, your digging capacity is pretty limited anyway, unless you're just a stud, which is one reason why we PT'd so hard. I learned to embrace the philosophy of working harder with my mind, while having a strong physique as well to make the smarter executed tasks go faster. In that analogy, the Grendel is more like a very lightweight Entrenching tool made from unique alloys, that performs very well at digging fighting positions, while not breaking your back. A spoon would be some rimfire cartridge.

Think of all the moose that were killed with 6.5x55 Mausers with old bullets, corrosive primers, and low pressure tolerant steels from the 1800's and early 1900's, where 45,000psi in the chamber was really pushing the limits of metallurgy of the era, then look at what we are able to achieve with modern metallurgy, bullet construction, and powders. What one might call a stunt, untold numbers of hunters used as a simple tool to put meat in the cellar.

W.D.M. Bell wasn't out performing stunts on elephant, he was doing it to make a living. He retired a wealthy man from his hunting exploits, and married into high society in Scotland after cashing out for years of ivory. His choice of calibers was the most effective and efficient approach for him to kill as many animals as possible, to include all the meat he provided for local tribesmen who delivered good intel to him on where the largest elephant herds were.

If you read Bob Stokes' perspective on suitable calibers for hunting large game in the Alaskan region in the Introduction of Volume II, he held the idea that a .375 H&H was ideal for taking game in Alaska, and smaller calibers were not cut out for it, especially after some bad experiences with clients who brought .243 Winchesters. That all changed when some Scandinavian hunters showed up with 6.5x55 Mausers. Penetration was what really impressed him, on top of wind-bucking and nice trajectories.

[NugginFutz]

Holy smoke, there's just no pleasing some people. XCR - People have taken the time to illustrate their point, patiently, and with some very interesting information, by the way. The fact is, the Grendel is proven to be a viable cartridge, with the proper load, of cleanly taking a moose.

What it seems to be coming down to, is that you appear to be changing the argument from your original position that "The Handbook was out of line", and that "That no Grendel has taken a moose" into what is your idea of what is ethical.

Two entirely different positions, where one is objective, and the other being subjective.

LRRPF52's examples of the 6.5 x 55 track record in various European settings should, at the very least, illustrate that the caliber is quite capable of taking not just a few, but thousands of moose. That, in my opinion, is no "stunt", and is clearly objective proof.

Declaring that a Grendel is not the ethical choice for a moose hunt, on the other hand, is very subjective. By what measure are you declaring the Grendel unethical? That there are bigger, better cartridges out there? If that is the case then, using that rationale, we would all be hunting bunnies with 300 Winmags, or 7 RUM. Certainly they are heavier hitters but, as many on this board have often proven, it always comes down to shot placement, regardless of the round. Heck, if you recall, we've got pictures of a two-fer from a recent hog hunt.

Give it a rest, man, and at least have the decency to admit when someone has shown you what you denied was viable. You need to get out and shoot more, or something.

[stokesrj]

I've seen these kinds of arguments over the years go back and forth mostly by people who have never even seen a moose or seen a moose shot or if they have, only a few. I'll simply say this, I've seen moose taken with .22 Hornet, .223, .243, 6.5X54, 6.5x55, 6.5x57R, 264 Win Mag, .270 Win, .270 Wby, 7x57, 30-30, .308, 30-06, 300 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Wby, 9.3X62 and 375 H&H. I've personally taken quite a few with the 6.5x55, .270, 30-06, and .375 and I've also dispatched several with my .38 Special 2 1/2" Colt Diamondback, 1911 .45 ACP and my Remington 870 12 Ga. Once you've seen this many moose shot your begin to understand they aren't tough, it doesn't take much to get through their rib cage, and if you do, they don't go far.

Limiting our discussion to the US, more moose have been taken with the 30-30 than any other caliber and more have been taken with the .223 than any other caliber in the last 20 years. This is driven by native subsistence hunters. They don't read the shooting press, they just shoot moose to eat. The 6.5 Grendel is a more capable moose killer than either the .223 or 30-30 and if used with proper judgment will kill a moose cleanly, 100% of the time with a 123 SST or stouter bullet.

The poor performance I've seen on moose have all been in two categories, poor shot placement, or bullets driven at speeds above their structural capability. Most of the latter have been with the 300 Win Mag using conventional cup and core bullets, like the 150 grain Remington Core Loct. This combination when used at close range, where most moose are shot, fails to penetrate the heavy shoulder muscles of a mature bull moose, it fragments to small pieces. However, the same weight and construction bullet when fired from a 30-30 will go right through the shoulder penetrate both lungs and usually penetrate the off shoulder, and be captured by the off side hide.

A quartering away shot should not be attempted on moose if the bullet has to pass though the paunch to reach the vitals with any caliber less than a 9.3X62 or .375 H&H and similar if expanding bullets are used. For that reason, if I were hunting specifically moose, and nothing else, I would choose a 9.3X62. It is the perfect moose caliber. However, if I were hunting with my 6.5 Grendel, I would feel 100% comfortable taking any moose with it, I would simply choose my shots within it's capabilities. This is easily done on moose, especially in the wilds of Alaska, they are not very weary.

Bob

[NugginFutz]

Bob,

I followed your introduction in Vol. 2 with great interest. You very clearly detail the reasons why this cartridge might seem to defy what the spreadsheets and other data tables suggest.

Thanks for a very enlightening look into your experiences.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Over 100,000 moose are killed each year in Sweden alone, some years as high as 130,000. In Finland, it varies from 20,000-60,000 killed per year.

6.5x55 Mauser is one of the most popular cartridges for that task in both countries, and has been for over a century.

Walter D.M. Bell was a famous elephant hunter who killed 1011 elephants, mostly with a 7x57 Mauser shooting brain shots with FMJ's, but also with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine, which has probably the closest performance to the 6.5 Grendel if you're looking for a legacy cartridge to compare.

6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer 18" Barrel
129gr SST 2300-2400fps
140gr SST 2300-2400fps
160gr 2000-2200fps

6.5 Grendel 18" Barrel
129gr SST 2200-2350fps
140gr Lapua Naturalis 2100-2200fps

He later had a Gibbs in 6.5x54mm Mannlicher made, and used it to harvest everything from antelope to giraffe in Africa, using soft point bullets. He was a huge proponent of being able to train with a soft recoiling, lightweight rifle that also had high-for-caliber sectional density projectiles, and dry-fired every chance he got while walking the plains, using both eyes open and a bead sight zeroed for POI in the center of the bead. I would highly suggest studying his life, as it is one of those adventures that you simply can't make up. It literally makes all of the action films one might have seen seem dull.

Thanks for nothing for the book recommendation, as that one is extremely tough to find sir!! I imagine I have a pretty good idea of it from your post though. : P

[montana]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Ivory.../dp/0312000480 Here is another great read, one of my favorites.

There are many other African hunters from the past who considered Bell crazy for using such a small caliber, so go opinions. Since reading Robert Stokes introduction, I would have to say I may have been wrong about my thinking with certain smaller calibers performance. In 1952 my late father shot a bull moose in Alaska with his trusty 32 Winchester rifle and dropped it with one shot from approximately 75 yards. He never used any other firearm and shot more wild game including elk and bear than I ever will. He was deadly with his lever action rifle but always used it with in its capabilities. I know I will never argue with Robert Stokes about caliber capability. It is nice to have such experienced people give us their knowledge, "great forum."

[stokesrj]

Thanks for nothing for the book recommendation, as that one is extremely tough to find sir!! I imagine I have a pretty good idea of it from your post though. : P

It's still available from Safari Press http://www.safaripress.com/Karamojo-...tinfo/BELL96Z/
Bob

[XcountryRider]

Lets see the moose pics and stories and bullet selections and ballistic effects. I curious on the barrel length distance to target etc.

[LRRPF52]

Something that is applicable to us as it was to W.D.M. Bell was his detailed study of game anatomy. For example, he spent a lot of time dissecting and analyzing various elephant skulls so that he knew exactly where to place his shots for a brain kill, and as he was hunting for ivory, he wanted to kill as many animals as possible in one engagement.

A technique he would use to avoid getting stampeded in the melee after the first elephant dropped was to climb on top of the dead animal, and make rapid follow-up shots on as many more in the herd as possible. By perching on the huge carcass, he was immune from being trampled as the beasts made their away around it. This is another reason why he liked lightweight, low-recoiling, high sectional density rifle/cartridge combinations. I think he tried a heavy .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle on his first safari, but quit using it after seeing that he could kill elephants just as easily, with less recoil with smaller calibers when shot in the same place.

It was great to have Bob Stokes collaborate with us, since his hunting experience is something you rarely find among men. While many of us have been hunting since childhood, the amount of experience that an Alaskan hunting guide and Grand Slam hunter bring to the table is truly a wealth of knowledge and insight that you can check against when wondering about terminal ballistics, bullet selection, impact velocities and bullet construction, as well as fieldcraft.

Additionally, Bob brings an interesting perspective on the biggest change in hunting rifles in this generation, and that is where the attitude towards the AR15 has totally taken a different direction for hunters. There are still a few holdouts, but a substantial number of even old-timers are realizing the all-round utility, inherent accuracy, modularity, and user-friendliness of the AR15. Since we are no longer limited to the .223 Remington, many hunters are realizing a new set of capabilities with something exceptional from the AR15 receiver set, and the 6.5 Grendel offers us external and terminal ballistics that are in a different league than the .223 Remington. Just looking at the bullet selection on pages 37-39 really opens up your eyes, especially since these are just the 6.5mm hunting projectiles.

[bwaites]

Lets see the moose pics and stories and bullet selections and ballistic effects. I curious on the barrel length distance to target etc.

XCR, Since the people that shot the moose have never posted here, I suspect that they didn't make the transition to the new board. It took some members quite a while, and I even had to go bird dog a few to get them back on the board.

I don't recall if they even posted what bullet they used.

Sorry, I just know that there were at least two different animals, one was back east, (Maine if I remember right), the other was in Montana, I think.

But, since the closest moose to you is at least a good days drive, I doubt you have to worry about running into one!

I had one about 2 blocks from my office last summer, wandering through the neighborhood.

He didn't like the paintballs that the game warden was using to push him back out of town, though!