Zero Ranges Benefits/Drawbacks Specific for 6.5 Grendel

[LR1955]

I'm a new Grendel shooter, but I've built limited data from 25-200m. My observations are thus.

I used a 25m target to get rounds on paper, and centered, before moving to 100m.
@100m, I was about somewhere between .7-1 mrad low (hard to remember, because I had no intent to keep the 25m zero, just adjusted).
@200m, I confirmed that I needed .7 mrad (123 gn ELD-M @ ~2470 fps) of adjustment.
On the flip side, using my 200m zero, I'm only about ~2 inches high @ 100m/150m...
Honestly, under field conditions, that's inside my margin for error as a shooter from anything other than prone supported. As mentioned here, my optic has a zero stop and I am toying with whether to leave that @ 100m or move it to 200m.

Now, all that being said, my greatest experience attempting to shoot multiple distances with one zero is actually using my issue rifle/carbine. I have a healthy appreciation of free-float handguards from the same. Part of the problem is that a 25m zero is poor practice in general, because it can mask errors if you're not shooting dime sized groups. However, if we look at the theoretical PBR 25/300m PBR zero, we note that your best case is being about 5 inches high at your 150 and 200m targets. I admit to not being the best shooter, but I found this not to be an effective PBR zero/trajectory. Just shooting at Ivans w/ either RDS or irons, I needed to make a conscious effort to aim at the base of the target to maximize my hit potential. That's not an ideal hold, either, but I needed/wanted a clear POA reference and "estimate five inches low on this relatively featureless, monochromatic mass" wasn't it.

A 50/200m zero ended up providing me a far more useable trajectory, with far less input required on my part as a shooter. Part of that is because the projectiles is within +/- 3 inches of POA all the way to 250 meters and is no lower (about -5 inches) @ 300m, than a 25/300m zero is high at 150-225m. Accounting for 5 inches of drop between 250-300m is a lot easier for me than accounting for +5 inches in my short-mid range shooting.

These are big targets. An Ivan is, arguably, a much easier target to hit than a deer (for example). I found the +/- 5 inch trajectory tolerance to be far too generous for even this type of shooting, based on my level of skill. It required me to make hold under corrections on the most common targets I was engaging to score hits reliably. I wanted to be able to hold POA centered on my target and make hits - which is what a PBR zero is supposed to support. Moving to a +/- 3 inch 50/200m zero supported that for me. The 300m targets being the least common, it was much less hassle to just hold at the neck/shoulder for that one presentation.

Sorry for the TL/DR...that's how I arrived to my own conclusion on the utility of the PBR zero and what sort of trajectory I'm willing to accept in a PBR zero.

DJ:

Had to read it a couple of times. I doubt your trajectory would be low at 100 given a 25 point of aim / impact. More like about five inches high but won't argue it.

Agree with having to hold low at the 150 and 200 targets with a 300M BSZ. Shouldn't be that way given computer generated data and there are reasons why you had to hold low other than just danger space issues. And high for the 300's. However your experience is more common than not. Which is why I asked how many put paper up from about 25 to the end of their computed danger space and shot a group on each target using a center hold, to actually see what is happening both in terms of trajectory and group size.

Also think your 200 zero would give a higher hit probability given a center hold until you get to 300. Then like you said, a high hold on the 300 targets.

LR55

[murfvol]

I have nothing useful to add, but greatly appreciate y'all freely sharing your wisdom.

As a slacker, and because there's no good spot to do a correct PBR between 200 & 300 yards where I shoot, I use a 200 yard zero. Klem makes great points about sacrificing a few yards with that though.

[JASmith]

Reading some of ther recent posts, especially the ones by LR55, reminded me that the zero "drift" from session to session might be a manifestation of the true dispersion of one's rifle, especially if calm winds are present for each session.

On average, a 3 - 5 shot group is much smaller than 10 or 20 shot group given the same intrinsic dispersion. Most of us don't want to 'waste' ammo on 20 or 30 shot groups, especially when all those 'flyers' make the group much bigger.

Add to this changes in wind, temperature and light and the group grows slightly more.

That is why I advocate multiple trips to the range using the same zero for all of them. Then set the sights to capture the composite group center.

Next look at the composite group size and extend it to the range where it would be about the size of the vital zone of interest. That defines the maximum tange where one should attempt a shot under conditions similar to what were seen on the range over the multiple trips.

If the winds ere stronger than seen on the range, don't attempt the shot unless you have confidence in your doping and offset.

[Klem]

I have nothing useful to add, but greatly appreciate y'all freely sharing your wisdom.

As a slacker, and because there's no good spot to do a correct PBR between 200 & 300 yards where I shoot, I use a 200 yard zero. Klem makes great points about sacrificing a few yards with that though.

murf,

You don't need a 200-300 yard range to zero with a PBR. Calculate your PBR on the computer and it will also give you the impact point on the target at 100. For example, it might be 3.1" high at 100. You then zero at 100 so that the point of impact is 3.1" higher than what you are aiming at. Then you are PBR-set for all the further ranges.

If you want to send me your gun's info (muzzle velocity, bullet etc) I can do it for you.

[Kilco]

Kilco:

So you are saying that every single time you went to the range with that rifle and shot at 100 yards, it grouped exactly where it grouped the previous X number of times? Not that it held a bulls eye every time. But that it shot to the same zero every time and you have never had to touch the sights.

LR55

Yes, exactly the same spot. Given the round count with this rifle is relatively low, (below 500) but my handloads with the 143 ELD-X, 140 ELD-M, Berger 130 AR Hybrid and 140 VLD hunting POI are all within .5 moa. 120 TTSX was the furthest from said POI, at 1 moa to the lower left.

Ive never had results like this with any other rifle whatsoever.

My father has a 6.5-284 build on a stellar action by Clarence, and he has similar results.

I've only neck sized Lapua brass for it, and I've yet to have to trim the brass. It shrunk slightly on the first firing, and with 10 reloads on the same brass (neck sizing only) i have to seen any growth.

It sounds like horse s***, but every time I've taken this rifle out, at 100 yards with my pet load of H4350 under the 143 eld-x at 2800fps it is absolutely in the center of the target.

The rifle also wears a Nightforce SHV F1, so I'm very confident in the scopes repeatability as well.

[LR1955]

Yes, exactly the same spot. Given the round count with this rifle is relatively low, (below 500) but my handloads with the 143 ELD-X, 140 ELD-M, Berger 130 AR Hybrid and 140 VLD hunting POI are all within .5 moa. 120 TTSX was the furthest from said POI, at 1 moa to the lower left.

Ive never had results like this with any other rifle whatsoever.

My father has a 6.5-284 build on a stellar action by Clarence, and he has similar results.

I've only neck sized Lapua brass for it, and I've yet to have to trim the brass. It shrunk slightly on the first firing, and with 10 reloads on the same brass (neck sizing only) i have to seen any growth.

It sounds like horse s***, but every time I've taken this rifle out, at 100 yards with my pet load of H4350 under the 143 eld-x at 2800fps it is absolutely in the center of the target.

The rifle also wears a Nightforce SHV F1, so I'm very confident in the scopes repeatability as well.

Kilco:

I ask, not because the rifle may change but because the shooter may change. Am curious to know how much and how often. I have sometimes gone five training sessions without any change but the sixth session, same range, same conditions, shows a change. Whether the change is minor or major depends on the standards one has set. I bring it up only because sometimes people can get consumed with trying to figure out why instead of just accepting it for that day and continuing on.

LR55

[Kilco]

Kilco:

I ask, not because the rifle may change but because the shooter may change. Am curious to know how much and how often. I have sometimes gone five training sessions without any change but the sixth session, same range, same conditions, shows a change. Whether the change is minor or major depends on the standards one has set. I bring it up only because sometimes people can get consumed with trying to figure out why instead of just accepting it for that day and continuing on.

LR55

Massive truth to this, and even regarding this rifle you are 100% correct.

Even though this is a 15 lbs bolt gun and relatively easy to shoot, every few outing with it I'll find myself shooting inexplicably low 1/2 to 1". Seems to be a Trend with me and all my rifles.

With my Grendel (16" 7.3 lbs rifle) I find if my concentration is off or I've had one too many coffees I'm usually puilling to the low right.

[murfvol]

Thanks a ton Klem! Info will be headed your way soon.

[ulmapache]

I know this is an old thread, but here goes. Have finished my project, A-2 left handed clone 6.5 grendel. We have no ranges in the area worth messing with, better to find an open area and set up a target. My question: Need POI vs POA for a 36 yard zero as in Marine Corp zero. There are sites that discuss this for the 5.56, but not for the Grendel. Appreciate the replies...and plz don't be too hard on this noob... Had fun building it...and looking forward to building the next one for hunting. This one is for defense.

Grendel A-2.png

[LR1955]

I know this is an old thread, but here goes. Have finished my project, A-2 left handed clone 6.5 grendel. We have no ranges in the area worth messing with, better to find an open area and set up a target. My question: Need POI vs POA for a 36 yard zero as in Marine Corp zero. There are sites that discuss this for the 5.56, but not for the Grendel. Appreciate the replies...and plz don't be too hard on this noob... Had fun building it...and looking forward to building the next one for hunting. This one is for defense.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19717[/ATTACH]

UMP:

Out to 300 yards or meters depending on your likes, the trajectories of almost every rifle round are extremely close. They vary a few inches and this is meaningless in terms of upper torso shots on humans to 300.

Zero it at 25 or zero it at 36 yards and you will hold the upper torso at 300. The 25 meter zero will probably give you more danger space when past 300 but both will work.

Just understand that any reduced range zero was originally intended to get the shooter on paper at the true zero distance. Then the guy gets his true zero.

I would not trust any short range zero to be good enough to risk my life unless it was with machineguns.

Why 36 yards I wonder? May be technically correct for issued ball and issued carbines and issued sights but in reality my bet is most military shooters wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 25 meter and 36 yard close range zero.

You say this is for defense. Do a short range zero at what ever distance you want, 25 meters or 36 yards. Then confirm on a E Sil at the true distance. It should be 300. If you think you only need a shorter zero, put your target up at the range you think is right and zero it there. A 25 meter zero will shoot high to about 250. A 36 yard zero may be closer to center at 250 but will probably be a bit low at 300.

Bottom line -- confirm at the distance you want the zero.

LR55

[65Carcano]

I know this is an old thread, but here goes. Have finished my project, A-2 left handed clone 6.5 grendel. We have no ranges in the area worth messing with, better to find an open area and set up a target. My question: Need POI vs POA for a 36 yard zero as in Marine Corp zero. There are sites that discuss this for the 5.56, but not for the Grendel. Appreciate the replies...and plz don't be too hard on this noob... Had fun building it...and looking forward to building the next one for hunting. This one is for defense.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19717[/ATTACH]

That is a cool project, I've thought a classic M16 6.5 Grendel would be a fun rig. Maybe sometime down the line I'll follow in your footsteps. Can't help on the zeroing front, but as an aside my Grendel is zeroed based on MPBR for Hornady SST factory loads out of a 20" barrel. Most of my scoped rifles are sighted in with the MPBR method.

[Stinky Coyote]

I would appreciate information on zeroing for the 6.5 Grendel and the benefits/drawbacks associated with each. (100yds? 200yds?) I'm trying to get an idea what everyone uses: Is one better than the other for hunting? Is one better for target shooting?

what do you shoot with it?

if it's for hunting coyotes to big game, zero 200, even with a 16" barrel around 2386 fps 123's that gives you about 5.3" mpbr window to about 235 yards, no more that 2.6" high or 2.7" low all the way to 235, which is small enough for coyote work, and if you set up to shoot beyond mpbr then you can figure out your elevation correction solutions from there, 200 is the easy number to remember and start from for most of the slower cartridges fyi...anything under 2700 fps....for the fast stuff like 2900 fps then start looking at 250 yard zero...I've never used anything else from .204's to .270 wsm on faster end I go 250 yard zero, even a .270 win, but 308's and grendel's etc. I go 200 yard zero

100 yard zero is for the target guys and good for range work only, there are prs long range guys arguing the benefits of the 100 yard but they are just trying to sell it, do not set foot out there hunting without moving the zero to 200, you will meet Murphy when you least want to if you do, so many examples in the field from hunting and using mpbr zero that I can't start, even my first kids first deer would not have happened if not set like that, but hunting means KISS principle and remove as many variables as possible, it's an automatic to use mpbr zero for hunting, anyone trying to tell you otherwise is talking from the bronze star

oh and first shot without time to range....always hold fur, most guys who hold over thinking it was further will miss, the animal is usually closer than you think, so follow those 2 rules, mpbr zero, and if no time to range, always hold fur on first shot, never hold over

[MachV]

Good advice on the hold fur on the first round but with the little Grendel I have done well with a 100 yard zero and useing moa hash reticle or dialing if time allows . The first five antelope dropped in their tracks between 375 and 453 yards, the sixth my elbow slipped on my knee at the shot at 153 yards and took out both knees.
Of coarse time in the dog towns is great practice????

[Stinky Coyote]

lots to be said for picking your gear and method then becoming a master at it, the more variables the more likely you'll meet Murphy, it's up to the individual to boil it down to as simple a KISS principle as possible for what they want to do, a lot of things we shoot at will give us plenty of time to use all sorts of gear and methods, practiced or not, beyond mpbr is most often when you do have time to solve for elevation, wind etc. it's inside that window when you have the least amount of time and by a large margin, you're in their wheelhouse of senses and sight, so you are going to meet Murphy when you least want to, that's just how it is, there's no arguing it, so set up to take advantage of where 98% of all game is taken with fewest possibilities of meeting Murphy...do whatever for the 2% stuff, most target strategies work

Alberta here, coyotes, whitetails, muley's, bears, wolves, antelope, sheep, moose, elk...there's only one way to set up best for all them. To ignore the trajectory of a 2400-3000 fps projectile and the general size of kill zones just defies logic, these things only cost you when it's a truly amazing animal, most won't notice otherwise. Amazing to me how it gets argued however. I have no issue with 100 yard zero to make sure you're on for a new location but dial it to the 200/250 before you start hunting or know where it hits at 100 if that's all you can come up with to confirm things, ie; 2.5" high at 100 or whatever it is. Starting from 100 is just a 100 yard handicap, some like the challenge though. That phrase 'the more you fack around the more you find out' is perfect for this imo.

some guys hunt only a few of those species and not the flighty ones, so just about any method will work, but chase whitetails and elk in non-baiting areas, coyotes, wolves, bears as well...you'll find out, the sight/distance defence based animals like muley's, sheep, and antelope give you all kinds of time if you're far enough away they don't perceive you as a threat...fill yer boots with the target gear and set up, most of the time you'll be alright, you still run a risk of meeting Murphy however, that risk goes way up with the flight/defence based animals that flee first and ask questions later lol, you don't have time to play sniper, just get on fur and shoot, use that 2400-3000 fps advantage properly

[gldprimr]