Long Range Grendel Barrel

[DL42]

I'm looking to get a new barrel for my Grendel upper. This will be a little long winded, but I want to be thorough as everyone on here is looking to get different things out of this cartridge. A little over a year ago, I purchased a complete upper from grendelhunter.com, and it has been good but not great. I elected to purchase an assembled upper from someone with Grendel experience after hearing about so many issues with feeding, extraction, and cycling. I will say that after I got a decent mag, this upper has done all those things flawlessly. My only gripe is that this gun is only about 1MOA, and after seeing others' results, I was a little bit underwhelmed. So, let me layout the details of what I have, how I use it, and what I want to end up with.

I do not hunt, nor compete, and this gun will be shot primarily from the bench or prone. I shoot paper and steel. I have no problems ringing steel at 600 yards, but at 100 from a lead-sled, the groups average 1 MOA. I do get the occasional .75 group, but for each of those there are a couple that are 1.25 MOA. I want a barrel that can near .75MOA on average with factory ammo (Hornady ELD 123gr). Some consider "accurate" ringing steel at a couple hundred yards. To me, that isn't what the grendel is all about. I can hit 13" gongs at 300yd with a basic 556 and crap ammo. I want a gun that I can hit steel at 1000 yards, provided I do my part.

My current barrel is a 22" fluted Liberty (by Satern) button rifled barrel. I believe the posted weight was 39oz.

I would like to spend somewhere in the $300-$400 range. I am eyeing the Rainier Ultramatch 18" fluted barrel, or the Criterion (non-fluted) by Precision Firearms, probably an 18 or 20". Yes, this is a bench gun, but I don't want this thing to be an absolute tank either. I don't need bugholes at 100yds (although that would be awesome), but is it unreasonable for me to expect .75moa out of either of these barrels with factory ammo? I do not reload, nor do I have the time to dedicate to hand load or test said hand loads.

I have looked a little bit at the Bartlein, but is it really worth spending nearly double?

What are some experiences you guys have had with these barrels?

Any info you have is appreciated, and if I left anything out or need to clarify something, let me know.

[A5BLASTER]

If you want to hit steel at a grand and this will be a target gun only. Here are my thoughts

Up your budget too 600-700 bucks. Get a Bartlien barrel from PF 24 inches long. Thick as they can make it. Put it in a top shelf billet upper that has had its face lapped and bed the barrel. Use an adjustable gas setup and lowmass bcg setup.

Make the gun come in at 10 pounds are over. Buy the very best scope mount with min 20moa slant built in. Top it with a scope that gives 24 power or more on the top end.

Get a good ballistics app and chonagraph. Buy the very best match factory ammo that is made or start reloading (Truth be told reloading will give you better ammo for that range).

Don't safe money on your trigger the lighter the pull and the cleaner the break the better. Think ssa-e or higher quality 2 stage triggers.

Invest in several bibod and bag setups, as your shooting position will dictate what setup will work best on that day.

Sure you can hit a gong at 1000 yards with a cheaper build and cheaper ammo but if you want to do it consistently and have your best chance of doing it on a first round cold bore shoot. Your going to have to pay the price for the properly built rifle and loading setup to get that kind of accuracy.

And then you still got too learn on said rifle and ammo to develop those skills.

Just my thoughts hope it helps sir.

[Mark611]

Well Put A5, accuracy costs money!

[grayfox]

I'm going to assume that your "funding" status is not unlimited, like mine, I try to look for the good to better values while not breaking the bank. If I were into competition then I'd commit the $$thousands to it... but I'm not, so.

Stay as long as you can 20" minimum, 22" better IMO. Also the Criterion barrel, or a Ballistic advantage barrel would be in the $350 +/- range. Yes the Bartlien or the Lilja would be better if you can go there. But the Criterion or BA should also work and still have some $$ for other components. I've had both (still have a BA) and for the money they are above average to be sure, even better... but not premium admittedly.

Don't forget your scope and the trigger... and cheek weld. Scope, barrel, trigger are the bare min key items.
Good quality or better quality upper, BCM is pretty good -- if you need to switch that out. Scope, you'll want a 30mm tube at least, 16-20x or+ magnification. and need plenty of elevation, so look at those specs and you might need that 20 MOA pic rail to help you out. I have a Viper HST and took it to 1000, 16x regular 0 MOA rail, but you can and should do a bit better there. Trigger, nice -- something like -- 1.5-2 lbs clean break like a timney or similar, 3 or 4 choices out there are comparable, again, imo.

The Luth-AR MBA-3 is on sale at primary arms for ~$107, I say this b/c at the bench your consistent cheek weld/sight picture alignment will make a huge difference.

All this from my $0.02 experiences. I like the tinkering, and am not a professional shooter, but try to find one area and improve it, then on to another.

[NugginFutz]

I'm a firm believer in the 90:10 rule - the last 10% of a weapons accuracy will cost you 90% of the total investment (at least). You can build a reasonably accurate rifle for a modest amount of money, but those last fractions of MOA will cause you to invest significantly more time and/or money.

For any accurate AR, you need a good platform to build from. You can only polish a turd so much, before you face the fact that, in the end, it's just a highly polished turd. What I mean is, you can buy an inexpensive barrel and throw hundreds of $$ in reloading supplies and range time at the "El Cheapo" barrel and still not end up with one as good as the average Bartlein. While not the only name in accurate barrels, a Bartlein is, without a doubt, worth every penny to those who are interested in accuracy.

As others have mentioned, the same philosophy applies to all major components, even the "benign" pieces. Just try to get consistent groups without a good, solid cheek weld, predictable trigger break or clear sight picture. Brakes/suppressors, Buttstocks, Bipods, Bags, even the right style hearing protection -- all are a part of the overall system.

As far as the build is concerned, any and all weapons are nothing but a pile of parts until someone with the right skills assembles them into a solid, tuned, accurate rifle. Most accurate weapons don't just "go together" out of the box. They need to be fitted, and finessed, in many cases. Why? Mainly because the majority of home builds are utilizing components from various sources / manufacturers, all building to their own tolerances.

This is where some of us can save some serious money. The greater your skill set, the less cash you need to spend. Contrariwise, if your skill sets are limited, you have to balance the investment with more $$ paid to an individual with the necessary skills.

Deciding how much accuracy you really need is going to be key in determining how much time and money you will invest in your bench gun. If shooting recreationally, your options are limited only by how much wallet pain you're willing to endure. If shooting competitively, well - that's another story.

[Klem]

DL,

If you are not happy with 1MOA, which is already good precision for an AR then yes, double the cost of the barrel is worth it. Going from $250 to $500 for a barrel is not a lot of money in the shooting business when you think about it. I mean, how many rounds and shooting time is the equivalent of $250? You might spend that in the first month trying to get a more average barrel to shoot at its best. I also believe the barrel IS the gun so at least don't skimp on that, but also the scope and the trigger. Everything else holds it together.

Sure, take your time finding other parts like an upper that is a tight fit and square and choose a fixed rather than folding stock for your bench gun. But the barrel is the gun and it is also a consumable. This means as you shoot it wears out and the group sizes grow. Be ready to change it out for a new one as soon as the group sizes grow beyond your definition of accurate. In F-Class we changed our barrels every year whith the guys that shot internationally had several barrels, knowing that off-the-shelf some barrels are better than others. We called them 'hummers'. With expensive lapped stainless barrels from reputable Olympic-shooter manufacturers like Krieger, Bartlein and Lilja there is more chance their barrels will be hummers. By the same token you could be lucky and buy a cheap barrel that is a hummer, but that will always be a gamble.

There are other world reputation barrel makers but those three are in the US (no import paperwork), are top league and Krieger and Lilja both make AR drop-in's with the headspace fixed at the factory and barrel extension already fitted. Bartlein just sells blanks, but a good gunsmith will machine the blank for you. Don't buy fluted barrels as you are not in a weight-limited competition but shooting off the bench in your own time. Fluting doesn't shave a lot of weight off a barrel anyway. Nor does it make a barrel stiffer which is an old wives tale. You are also not walking around in a hunting scenario or shooting from the standing unsupported where weight might be an issue. You want as heavy a gun as possible to make it stable and mitigate jump. Thick barrels don't whip as much, act as better heat sinks and they also weigh the gun down, which in your case is a good thing.

Even if you do buy a Bartlein I think your expectation of 0.75 with factory ammo is best-case scenario. If you get into hand loading which is down the rabbit hole then you can guarantee 0.75 and maybe a tiny bit more but AR's need a lot of work to get better than that and you're right on the edge of what this light-weight, semi-auto frame is capable of. The next level up is a bolt gun.

Precision costs money and as the other guys are saying, at the top end of accuracy it's the Law of Diminishing Returns.

[BjornF16]

My current barrel is a 22" fluted Liberty (by Satern) button rifled barrel.

If you don't want to repeat your issues with the above barrel, avoid anything labeled "Grendel II" (which is what that p.o.s. Satern Liberty barrel is). Stick with SAAMI spec Grendel.

Anything from PF should be gtg...the reason the Bartlein is double is because it is a "cut rifled" barrel from a quality barrel maker using quality steel. The Criterion is a button rifled barrel. Not going to debate the merits of either (you can do a search on the www if you want) here...but you have a higher probability of having a shooter with a quality cut rifled barrel (and not necessarily because it is "cut rifled")...aka "hummers" according to Klem ;-). To be sure, there are plenty of button rifled shooters/"hummers".

Just my $.02

Edit: As far as Bartlein goes, I'm a believer. Below is one of my Bartlein barrels (not a Grendel) at 100 yds (the outlier was my first shot from clean, oiled bore...the next 4 were all kissing).

280Rem accuracy.jpg

[NugginFutz]

If you don't want to repeat your issues with the above barrel, avoid anything labeled "Grendel II" (which is what that p.o.s. Satern Liberty barrel is). Stick with SAAMI spec Grendel.

Anything from PF should be gtg...the reason the Bartlein is double is because it is a "cut rifled" barrel from a quality barrel maker using quality steel. The Criterion is a button rifled barrel. Not going to debate the merits of either (you can do a search on the www if you want) here...but you have a higher probability of having a shooter with a quality cut rifled barrel (and not necessarily because it is "cut rifled")...aka "hummers" according to Klem ;-). To be sure, there are plenty of button rifled shooters/"hummers".

Just my $.02

Edit: As far as Bartlein goes, I'm a believer. Below is one of my Bartlein barrels (not a Grendel) at 100 yds (the outlier was my first shot from clean, oiled bore...the next 4 were all kissing).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]13569[/ATTACH]

This one is one of my 264 LBC BHW AR's. 22" Bull Barrel. Lapped, bedded, and given regular foot massages. Shot at 300 yards, from a bipod and rear bag. All shots were magazine fed, with a cold barrel. I personally feel it went well, since I had no spotter calling the shots and getting me all excited. The guys over on the 200 yard lanes were getting a kick our of watching my gasser "humming along".


39814419132_cd46066c24_o.jpg

[Townson]

I'm fairly new here and by no means an expert, but I'm in the process of building my first Grendel. Just wanted to throw out that Midway has stainless 20" Proof Research barrels for $479 I believe it is. I ordered one and just received it today. Looks nice sitting in it's box, but I won't know anything else until I get everything else together.

I went with Proof because, while there aren't alot of reviews, all that I have seen have shot around 0.75 with factory ammo and closer to 0.5 with handloads. They're also cut rifled and claim to have a SAAMI spec chamber. Just something to consider.

[DL42]

[A5BLASTER]

The seekins sprv3 handguard in their 15 inch version will give you the most room under the handguard for a .936 adjustable gas block. Plus it's flat sided and flat bottomed so it settles down into bags really really good.

[LR1955]

Thank you all for your input, it is greatly appreciated. It sounds like I just need to sack up and get the Bartlein from PF. $575 with a matched bolt really isnt that bad. I’ll probably get the bull barrel provided I can find a nice handguard that clears the gas block. As far as the rest of the rifle goes, it is a billet Fortis lower with a Larue MBT-2S trigger and a Magpul PRS stock. That stock gives me a great cheek weld. The upper has a Vortex Viper HST 6-24x50 mounted with a 20moa Warne mount. These pieces all seem to be working well for me.

NugginFutz, if I can get my groups that tight at 100 yards, I think I’ll be in good shape!

So, it sounds like my new upper build list will go something like this:
Bartlein barrel cut by PF
Fortis billet upper
Fortis Switch Mod2 Rail

PS. I really appreciate all the information, especially since it all looks like it was backed up with first hand experience. Keep it coming. This build will take me some time, so any additional information is helpful. Im not the only person in this world trying to make up for lack of talent by buying top notch equipment.

PPS. For those wondering about the quality of the fortis receivers, I can’t say enough good things about them. Though they are offered as a matched set, mine were purchased separately, and they have absolutely zero wiggle. This lower with my other forged upper fot just as snug. Their tolerances are amazing.

DL:

What is your hold area and how accurately can you call your shots?

Just asking.

LR55

[DL42]

[LR1955]

At the risk of completely embarassing myself, what do you mean by “hold area?”. As far as calling my own shots, I assume you mean my ability to see my misses and accurately determine how far off target I was. I would have to say Im at the beginning stages of that. When I miss a gong at 600yds (the farthest my range has) it usually only takes me one or two shots to accurately make adjustments to be back on. Again, I’m the guy trying spend money due to a lack of time to practice at the range, so any knowledge you can send my way is appreciated!

No embarrassing of yourself.

I believe we have discussed shot calls and hold areas in the Marksmanship Forum so you may want to do a search or search the web. An acid test I use with new shooters is to determine ho well they can call their shots and if they can tell me the size of their hold area and or their approach into the target and shot. If they are pretty good at calling shots and seeing the movement of their sights (barrel) as they go through the process of taking their shot, then if there is a major problem with accuracy I look towards a mechanical fix. If they are poor at calling shots and can't tell me how the sight was moving during the shot, it tells me that most likely a problem is them and not their equipment or ammo. I have done 'Ball and Dummy' with shooters and have seen their barrel move close to an inch between the time they close their eyes tightly and jerk the trigger on a dummy cartridge -- only to have them tell me the shot was perfect. If a guy can call his shots reasonably well, it tells me they are keeping their eyes open when they pull the trigger and their focus is on their sight picture and not something else. Guys who can't probably won't find too much improvement with better gear. They will realize some improvement but not the quantum amount they expect.

Buying a high quality barrel won't hurt anything because at least you will have a known quantity -- a barrel that will shoot well. What this will show you is that it ain't the barrel giving you problems. It is you.

The Grendel is not a real good choice for long range shooting except under some very unique conditions that are not the norm.

LR55

[Jetpig]

I'm fairly new here and by no means an expert, but I'm in the process of building my first Grendel. Just wanted to throw out that Midway has stainless 20" Proof Research barrels for $479 I believe it is. I ordered one and just received it today. Looks nice sitting in it's box, but I won't know anything else until I get everything else together.

I went with Proof because, while there aren't alot of reviews, all that I have seen have shot around 0.75 with factory ammo and closer to 0.5 with handloads. They're also cut rifled and claim to have a SAAMI spec chamber. Just something to consider.

I also went with the Proof Stainless 20" off Midway. Just got my build together last week and gave it a try yesterday. With 30 starter recommended loads here using TAC and R15 I am easily at 1/2 MOA at 200 yards using 123g Nosler CC's on the barrel break-in. I could not be happier.