stronger bolt material for high pressure loads??

[Buster]

The most real, tangible thing you can do to improve the 6.5 Grendel performance is...

...get out and shoot it.

Love it!!

Just wished more ammo makers would get on the Grendel bandwagon..

[Tedward]

I talked to Hornady 2 weeks ago and they are making a BIG run of Grendel in March. All the Hornady Grendel Ammo out there is from there last run so I think once they make this production, they will be able to run more sooner since all the other stock piles are getting fulfilled. There will never be enough but if PPU (Prvi Partizan) also makes there Grendel Ammo, we might be in good shape for factory ammo. Personally, reloading is the best $$ saver so it just helps out getting people shooting on a Saturday or Sunday to get a taste of the Grendel.

[mongoosesnipe]

I think if you consider what you would loose in brass life and barrel life by adding 15k to the Grendel you will end up in the red vs using a different cartridge that said there is already a bolt set up to handle that kind of performance it's called an ar-10 if you need it to be a Grendel you could chamber the ar10 in Grendel and push it as hard as you want and you will still fall short of a 260 the Grendel just does not have the case capacity to push much more and even if you do push from 2500 to 2700 if you run the balistics all it does is buy you an extra hundred yards from 1100 to 1200 when you consider that a 260 can push the same bullet to 3000fps but you get a heavier package and burn 50% more powder.... There is no such thing as a free lunch

[cory]

The appeal to manufacturers is in the Grendel's lower pressures, SAAMI standardization, and larger margins in Factors Of Safety.

The performance speaks for itself once you look past mv, but I don't see the mv's as slow by any means. You can always go faster with more pressure, but at what costs.

If you push the pressures high, then you lose the Grendel throat right off the bat, and the accuracy life. Some guys with competition guns specifically built for one bullet shape don't have a problem with this, and it can be mitigated with melonited barrels, but for the average consumer who bought one for hunting, they would like some options in bullet selection, whether they are hunting large varmints like coyotes, taking down hogs with solids, putting some doe or buck meat in the freezer, or going after that larger game animal.

I used to be in the same boat asking for more and more mv, until I saw what the off-the-shelf cartridge does, even from short barrels. I no longer have any desire to hot-rod the Grendel, especially after seeing what CFE does for me under the 123gr.

You're preaching to the choir brother.

Love it!!

Just wished more ammo makers would get on the Grendel bandwagon..

We need a larger market base. This is what I think the extra fps would gain us.

[JASmith]

...We need a larger market base...

This forum is one vehicle that helps with that.

Remember, the proboscis on the proboscis monkey got there apparently because the females like long-noses. Folks go with what seems to get their attention.

I grew up with stories of massive hydrostatic shock in 17 caliber rifles taking all sorts of medium game. We have since learned that this was a path to a lot of lost wounded animals. Nonetheless, too many folks still have that emotional connection to manhood that comes from getting a few fps more than the guy on the next bench or tree stand.

That emotional context is a big reason why one can't instantly dismiss added velocity as something that has value even though showing what an added 100 or 200 fps gets us either in the field or on the range.

Back to the quoted comment: We should ask ourselves why we went with the Grendel in the first place. That will establish the historical marketing picture. Then we ask our buddies why they went with a different cartridge. That should prove instructive even if the reasons prove naive or humorous.

[arnie]

If you want 2700 fps out of a Grendel ,shoot a 100 grain bullet .

[BluntForceTrauma]

I was wondering if there is a stronger material grendel bolts could be made of that would allow high pressure loading up to say 65k psi.

The short answer is "yes." I discussed this with Bill Alexander a few years ago. He said that given proper engineering and proper metallurgy it could be done. (He rattled off a couple specs of steel alloys that could handle it, but I don't remember them.) But you'd have bolts costing $500 or more!

And then you'd have to strengthen the barrel extension. And then you'd have to strengthen the threads on the barrel. And then. . . .

John

[mongoosesnipe]

We need a larger market base. This is what I think the extra fps would gain us.

so you think we should have hot super grendel ammo available that will break any gun it goes into other than an idealistic super grendel, and you think that will be a selling point to get another major ammo maker into the grendel market......

[cory]

so you think we should have hot super grendel ammo available that will break any gun it goes into other than an idealistic super grendel, and you think that will be a selling point to get another major ammo maker into the grendel market......

No, no, no that's not what I mean. When a casual shooter/hunter starts looking into a non traditional round, what's the first thing they compare? Muzzle Velocity. We all know that's a mute point with the 6.5's ballistics, the casual shooter/hunter doesn't know that. If that MV can turn someone to the Grendel as opposed to another round, that's another potential customer for the major ammo manufacturers.

That's what it'll take to bring the Winchesters and other guys online with the Grendel, X# of potential customers.

I'm in non way saying we push the Grendel to magnum pressures (65ksi). I'm only suggesting the 58ksi, which would make it still safe for hand loaders to load to ~60ksi with only a shortened bolt life. Which I don't even know if 60ksi would be possible with current powder selection and the Grendel's max powder capacity.

If an ammo manufacturer were to offer rounds in that pressure (58ksi), and a box of that ammo was put into the original AR15 design by mistake the weapon would be fine assuming the weapon was built properly. It would take a significant amount of bad decisions to see the problems you mention. What would likely happen is we'd see +P Grendel ammo.

More choices for the Grendel horde, how is this a bad thing?

[BluntForceTrauma]

Cory has a point. A good one. A savvy one. Think of the 6.8 SPC. For the part of the market that wasn't attracted to it because of the "tacticool" It Was Invented by Speshul Phorces and Is Fer Shur Gonna Be Adopted by the Marines, there was the part of the market attracted to It Exceeds .270 Velocities!!!

A mindless focus on muzzle velocity is not fair. It's ignorant. It makes the job harder for 6.5 Grendel marketers, but that's the reality of how most of the American market thinks.

In view of THAT, what I'd suggest is a fast 6.5 Grendel factory loading of a light hunting bullet (oh, 100 grains? but keeping SAAMI pressures) and advertise the hell out of that, just to grab attention. THEN you can sell them on the hidden beauty of high BCs in the heavier bullets. Sound like a plan?

John

[JASmith]

...If an ammo manufacturer were to offer rounds in that pressure (58ksi), and a box of that ammo was put into the original AR15 design by mistake the weapon would be fine assuming the weapon was built properly. It would take a significant amount of bad decisions to see the problems you mention. What would likely happen is we'd see +P Grendel ammo.

More choices for the Grendel horde, how is this a bad thing?

Well, one good result of having a bunch of +P (58ksi) ammo around is that owners of short-throated Grendels would have had instant feed back that something was wrong with their rifle as a result of the cratered primers, streaks on the case head, generally abused brass, and lots of broken bolts. I guess that is really a bad thing!

I recall that there were a lot of broken bolts earlier in the history of the Grendel, and one of our members dug through the posts and determined that the vast majority of these incidents came from handloaders. Speaking from personal experience early in my reloading career, I was also one who wanted the most MV -- call it a misguided manhood thing. One of the probable contributors to broken bolts is that many of these guys were loading to levels where they routinely got classic high pressure indicators and then picked a go to load somewhere at that level, which is well above the 52,000 psi SAAMI ceiling. Bolt fatigue sets in a lot faster when higher stresses are put on it.

Back to the velocity thing, one of the reasons (other than marketing by Big Green) folks took a shine to the 6.8 SPC is that Remington and others did not hesitate to implement lightweight bullets in the .277" diameter. That boosted velocities. It also gave this latter-day recoil-averse shooter softer load options for his .270!

So, a path to velocity is to go lighter. One of the long-standing benefits of the 6.5 bore is the proliferation of heavy-for caliber bullets. This means that the Grendel can take advantage of these good BCs and turn in excellent long range performance. Most hunters rarely take shots out as far as 300 yards, let alone 500+ yards, meaning that the Grendel would be OK with shorter range bullets for most deer and hog shooting. There is, however, some hesitation over going much lighter than standard hunting weights because experiences with the .243 Winchester and 6mm Remington showed us that a 90 grain cup and core bullet presses the light side of what one should consider for hunting the heavier deer.

This takes us to one of the few places where I will grit my teeth and advocate a bullet technology soon to be mandatory where I live. A 75 to 90 gr lead-free expanding bullet is arguably good for all North American deer. The 75 gr lead-free bullet gives a wound channel area that is about the same as a 115 grain classic bullet like the Core-Lokt while the 90 gr lead-free is more the equivalent of a 135 grain classic hunting bullet. Going to these bullets would then allow one to get interesting velocities while assuring decent deer-anchoring terminal ballistics.

A few of us would need to shoot a bunch of these bullets, collect records of harvested animals, and publish results in places where casual hunters start asking where to get this stuff. The challenge is where to get these lightweight custom bullets for load development, ballistics tests, and field results.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Jinx! Ha!

John

[cory]

Well, one good result of having a bunch of +P (58ksi) ammo around is that owners of short-throated Grendels would have had instant feed back that something was wrong with their rifle as a result of the cratered primers, streaks on the case head, generally abused brass, and lots of broken bolts. I guess that is really a bad thing!

I recall that there were a lot of broken bolts earlier in the history of the Grendel, and one of our members dug through the posts and determined that the vast majority of these incidents came from handloaders. Speaking from personal experience early in my reloading career, I was also one who wanted the most MV -- call it a misguided manhood thing. One of the probable contributors to broken bolts is that many of these guys were loading to levels where they routinely got classic high pressure indicators and then picked a go to load somewhere at that level, which is well above the 52,000 psi SAAMI ceiling. Bolt fatigue sets in a lot faster when higher stresses are put on it.

Point well taken, but I did say assuming the weapon was built properly. As we know those barrels were not.

I completely agree with the second paragraph. And I think we can agree that those were likely from 100+ HOT loads, likely 2 or 3 hundred plus.

[Drifter]

I've used a 6.8 quite a bit. The 6.8mm 95gr Barnes TTSX and 100gr Nosler AB are both very effective for hunting applications at "typical" distances, in part, due to velocity. I think the Grendel would be very well served by a (relatively) high-BC 6.5mm 107gr hunting bullet (maybe along the lines of a Nosler ABLR). Perhaps sort of a compromise between velocity and BC for the Grendel.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Yeah, I like Drifter's idea of a compromise. It's tempting to just go Ballz Out 60-grainer to get a sizzling, hyping hot MV, but we gotta TRY and be sensible. I'd still like to see a 100gr because it's still light, at three digits it seems like a serious weight for big game, and it gives a nod to better BC than the competition. A Nosler ABLR would seem almost ideal. Or a 100gr Hornady GMX. I still consider the Barnes 100 TTSX to be a little fatter in the ogive than it needs to be for best BC, and it's expensive, but it's a valid choice.

John