65 Receiver Set with Polymer mags from PF (HOPEFULLY)

[bwaites]

I didn't start this thread looking for those who would admittedly bash a new idea because they simply don't like it.

If you have legitimate concerns they're WELCOMED here. Please list them in bullet form preferably and let's discuss if we can design around it or not. "I don't think this is a good idea," is not a legitimate concern but a biased opinion that helps nothing. We NEED your thought out why.

Right now is not the time to discuss whether or not the costs are worth it, we're not even close to a prototype. This brainstorming is free (well maybe it costs Hanka something).

Let's debate what the optimal AR based platform is for the Grendel in terms of dimensions. THEN we should talk cost of what we've come up with and see if we can compromise to bring down the cost. THEN is the time to discuss the commercial viability of the notional platform, when it approaches the prototype maturity phase.

Ridiculous hyperbole does nothing to help anything.

It seems some are concerned that a new platform would cause a ridiculous notion that the Grendel would be perceived as a round that needs a specific platform for the shooter to take advantage the round. I do see where you're coming from, because there are a lot of ridiculous notions that narrow down the applicability of the Grendel in the heads of some shooters (as has been seen somewhat in this thread. I don't mean that as an attack, the fact is what it is).

However, I've seen no example of this with the LWRC 68 platform. If anyone can find a specific example please post it. Otherwise, lets put this notion to rest please.

Interesting. If I say that I see problems with an idea and believe it will fracture a somewhat fragile market and cause confusion you tell me it's my opinion and don't slam your idea. But if your opinion is different than mine you are free to continue the discussion because, well, my opinion is ridiculous.

I gave you multiple legitimate concerns:

1) Minimal performance advantage with a new design, you simply don't have powder space to significantly increase performance.
2) Cost. No government contract to support cost of development of a new mag. The Saudis paid huge money to support that development, and the Six8 receiver sets and mags are still about twice the AR price. (At LWRC the mags are 3 times the normal PMag price.)
3) Even with Hornadys support of ammunition (and now cheap Wolf steel case) no major manufacturer has stepped up and started building the Grendel.
4) Installed customer AR base gains no backwards compatibility.


Cory, you haven't been around long enough to remember this, but we debated the optimal platform for the mid cartridges about 8 years ago during the great 6.5 vs 6.8 debate. We all recognized that you could build a whole new rifle and maximize each cartridge, but that doing so would cost a ton of money and gain you well under 10 % in performance. The point of diminishing returns was reached using the AR15 platform.

How many 6.8 rifles are out there? How many Grendels? I've never seen a 6.8 at our range, but I know a couple owners. I've seen 3 Grendels besides mine. I haven't heard of a single Six 8 sale in my state. I can't find a mention on the local or state boards, though I obviously can't know about all the sales, I don't see them in stores.

I'm all for innovation. I just see no REAL advantage to be gained except the use of PMags. Of course that's just my OPINION, and I'm sure it's ridiculous!

[Sputnik]

Bulletized it is:

- Is it the love of the platform or the love of the round that is so appealing? For me it is both.

- I can't speak for the majority of the Horde, but my feeling is most of the comments on this forum are aimed at getting reliable performance from their builds, and/or enjoying the complete uppers and rifles presently easily/not so easily available.

- Would this be a hybrid/anomaly? How is the group buy of the short barrel Grendel going in comparison to other standard group buy efforts?

- If there is extra R&D money floating around, I would LOVE to see more economically available Grendel single shot rifles, bolt action barrels or complete bolt action rifles; or even semi auto standard rifles. What? Too small of a market?

- If this were "The Shark Tank", I would say too confusing, too many cooks in the kitchen or not enough depending if you are a consumer or a manufacturer, too many recipes, and I don't see the value added for us regular guys. For that reason, I am out.

- Good luck, innovating thinking is gift, I hope you get what you are searching for.

[stanc]

It seems some are concerned that a new platform would cause a ridiculous notion that the Grendel is as a round that needs a specific platform for the shooter to take advantage the round.

However, I've seen no example of this with the LWRC 68 platform. If anyone can find a specific example please post it. Otherwise, lets put this notion to rest please.

On 68forums there were members who voiced the same objections to the Six8 platform as seen by some Horde members in this thread. However, those who did buy Six8 receiver sets seem pleased with their acquisition. Here is a thread on the subject: http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...tform-Feedback

The following article on the Six8 by David Fortier is informative and addresses the issues raised in this thread: https://www.lwrci.com/articles/SGNLWRCsix8.pdf

As for applying the same approach to 6.5 Grendel, the demand is simply not there to justify any company spending the necessary time and money to create Grendel-specific receivers and magazines. If it's going to be done, it will have to use the already-in-production Six8 receivers and P-Mags.

So, the logical first step would seem to be acquisition of a Six8 P-Mag, determine how many rounds of 6.5 Grendel ammo it will hold, and if the cartridges stack properly. If the results prove unsatisfactory, then any further effort would be pointless.

[stanc]

1) Minimal performance advantage with a new design...
2) Cost. No government contract to support cost of development of a new mag.
3) Even with Hornadys support of ammunition (and now cheap Wolf steel case) no major manufacturer has stepped up and started building the Grendel.
4) Installed customer AR base gains no backwards compatibility.

1a) Irrelevant. Performance increase is not the intended purpose.
2a) Concur. If the existing Six8 P-Mag is not usable with 6.5 Grendel, the idea is not feasible.
3a) Not sure what you mean by "the Grendel." If you mean rifles, then eliminating the P-Mag option won't help get more gun makers onboard.
4a) Irrelevant. The installed AR customer base has gained no backwards compatibility with any other Grendel platform that has been introduced.

I'm all for innovation. I just see no REAL advantage to be gained except the use of PMags. Of course that's just my OPINION, and I'm sure it's ridiculous!

No, that opinion is not ridiculous. It is correct. The only advantage is the ability to use P-Mags.

Your opposition, however...

[bwaites]

1a) Irrelevant. Performance increase is not the intended purpose.
2a) Concur. If the existing Six8 P-Mag is not usable with 6.5 Grendel, the idea is not feasible.
3a) Not sure what you mean by "the Grendel." If you mean rifles, then eliminating the P-Mag option won't help get more gun makers onboard.
4a) Irrelevant. The installed AR customer base has gained no backwards compatibility with any other Grendel platform that has been introduced.

No, that opinion is not ridiculous. It is correct. The only advantage is the ability to use P-Mags.

Your opposition, however...

1b) if performance isn't the reason....then.....
3b) I mean rifles. If having Hornady building good target and hunting ammo, and Wolf delivering cheap plinking ammo doesn't get a major on board, there is no likelihood that someone will go to the expense of developing a specific mag.
4) My Grendel lowers work just fine with my .22, 5.56, and Beo uppers. That would not be tru with a Six5 upper. They also work just fine with every AR mag I've tried.

As for trying a Six8 mag, I think it's a great idea, what rifle are we going use to check feeding? It's a chicken/egg thing. They may go in fine, and not bulge the mag, but also not feed right because of the feed lip alignment or some other issue. But...I'm willing to give it a whirl, I just ordered a mag.

[stanc]

1b) if performance isn't the reason....then.....
3b) I mean rifles. If having Hornady building good target and hunting ammo, and Wolf delivering cheap plinking ammo doesn't get a major on board, there is no likelihood that someone will go to the expense of developing a specific mag.
4) My Grendel lowers work just fine with my .22, 5.56, and Beo uppers. That would not be tru with a Six5 upper. They also work just fine with every AR mag I've tried.

1c) ...the reason is use of PMags.
3c) Concur.
4c) Yes, but I said, "The installed AR customer base has gained no backwards compatibility with any other Grendel platform." Having bolt-action, single-shot, and Mini-30 conversions available gives no backward compatibility to AR15 Grendels, so I don't see this as a real issue.

As for trying a Six8 mag, I think it's a great idea, what rifle are we going use to check feeding? It's a chicken/egg thing. They may go in fine, and not bulge the mag, but also not feed right because of the feed lip alignment or some other issue.

Sure, but I figure ya gotta start somewhere. Besides, I think it's unlikely that the fatter cartridges will stack properly, or the mag will hold anywhere near 30 rounds. If I'm right, there'll be no need to check feeding.

But...I'm willing to give it a whirl, I just ordered a mag.

Wow. That's really going above and beyond. I was thinking that maybe somebody could borrow a Six8 PMag. Didn't expect anybody to go buy one. (I also posed the question on 68forums, but I have little expectation of getting an answer.)

[cory]

Interesting. If I say that I see problems with an idea and believe it will fracture a somewhat fragile market and cause confusion you tell me it's my opinion and don't slam your idea. But if your opinion is different than mine you are free to continue the discussion because, well, my opinion is ridiculous.

Come on man, I addressed that directly at the end of my post, at least I tried to. I didn't blow it off or say your opinion on that wasn't valid, I simply stated that evidence suggested otherwise. And asked that we were to continue down that road, you provide evidence to support your arguably radical hypothesis.

I gave you multiple legitimate concerns:

1) Minimal performance advantage with a new design, you simply don't have powder space to significantly increase performance.
That's not the driving factor in this new platform.
2) Cost. No government contract to support cost of development of a new mag. The Saudis paid huge money to support that development, and the Six8 receiver sets and mags are still about twice the AR price. (At LWRC the mags are 3 times the normal PMag price.)
Again, this is not the time to let cost drive the design. Let's figure out what we want, and then if we can make it affordable. I don't know what the LWRC receivers are running off the top of my head. How does their price compare the MATEN receiver sets?
3) Even with Hornadys support of ammunition (and now cheap Wolf steel case) no major manufacturer has stepped up and started building the Grendel.
Which is likely due to this BS bolt breaking myth. Another reason for this platform.
4) Installed customer AR base gains no backwards compatibility.
I'm lost on this, please elaborate.


Cory, you haven't been around long enough to remember this, but we debated the optimal platform for the mid cartridges about 8 years ago during the great 6.5 vs 6.8 debate. We all recognized that you could build a whole new rifle and maximize each cartridge, but that doing so would cost a ton of money and gain you well under 10 % in performance. The point of diminishing returns was reached using the AR15 platform.
Fair enough. I ask you this though, how much is the market paying to save mere ounces in the light weight world. How much does the high power world pay for top end glass where that extra $1k gets you less than 10% gain in performance? This isn't uncommon in our world here to see diminishing returns, while paying more.

How many 6.8 rifles are out there? How many Grendels? I've never seen a 6.8 at our range, but I know a couple owners. I've seen 3 Grendels besides mine. I haven't heard of a single Six 8 sale in my state. I can't find a mention on the local or state boards, though I obviously can't know about all the sales, I don't see them in stores.

I'm all for innovation. I just see no REAL advantage to be gained except the use of PMags. Of course that's just my OPINION, and I'm sure it's ridiculous!
It'd make me happy. What more advantage do you need. HAHA

See above in red.

[cory]

Bulletized it is:
Thank you and welcome to the conversation.

- Is it the love of the platform or the love of the round that is so appealing? For me it is both.
Me too. I think we can do this with minor changes to the receivers, keeping all of the common AR15 parts, with a possible exception of the bolt and extension.

- I can't speak for the majority of the Horde, but my feeling is most of the comments on this forum are aimed at getting reliable performance from their builds, and/or enjoying the complete uppers and rifles presently easily/not so easily available.
I'd agree with that assesment

- Would this be a hybrid/anomaly? How is the group buy of the short barrel Grendel going in comparison to other standard group buy efforts?
It's going a little bit slower, but not as much slower as it'd appear. In the original group buy, there was half a dozen different barrel contours to choose from in the 16" to 24" range. In this one there's only 1 contour to choose from in a barrel length that is uncommon to the Grendel at this time. A few weeks ago we were right on course if you compared our group buy to any one barrel option of the original group buy excluding the very popular AR740. It has slowed down a bit though. I'd also say the traffic on this forum has slowed down a lot since last spring.

- If there is extra R&D money floating around, I would LOVE to see more economically available Grendel single shot rifles, bolt action barrels or complete bolt action rifles; or even semi auto standard rifles. What? Too small of a market?

- If this were "The Shark Tank", I would say too confusing, too many cooks in the kitchen or not enough depending if you are a consumer or a manufacturer, too many recipes, and I don't see the value added for us regular guys. For that reason, I am out.

- Good luck, innovating thinking is gift, I hope you get what you are searching for.
Thank you. This country has been paved by those who saw a market for something no one else did, but pushed ahead to it anyways.

See above in Red.

[cory]

...As for applying the same approach to 6.5 Grendel, the demand is simply not there to justify any company spending the necessary time and money to create Grendel-specific receivers and magazines. If it's going to be done, it will have to use the already-in-production Six8 receivers and P-Mags.

So, the logical first step would seem to be acquisition of a Six8 P-Mag, determine how many rounds of 6.5 Grendel ammo it will hold, and if the cartridges stack properly. If the results prove unsatisfactory, then any further effort would be pointless.

Elander just released a Grendel specific magazine. It looks like the demand was there and still is.

I'd agree we should acquire a 68 mag, but if it won't work I don't think this will be pointless. Is Magpul not expanding it's production capacity as we speak in a pmag market that has drastically diminished?

[bwaites]

Hard to argue with it makes you happy!

[bwaites]

Fair enough. I ask you this though, how much is the market paying to save mere ounces in the light weight world. How much does the high power world pay for top end glass where that extra $1k gets you less than 10% gain in performance? This isn't uncommon in our world here to see diminishing returns, while paying more.

How big is that market, though? 100 scopes/year? How many March/Hensoldt/USOptic scopes do you see at YOUR range? And that market is also subsidized, both directly and indirectly, by .gov/.mil.

[bwaites]

Elander just released a Grendel specific magazine. It looks like the demand was there and still is.

I'd agree we should acquire a 68 mag, but if it won't work I don't think this will be pointless. Is Magpul not expanding it's production capacity as we speak in a pmag market that has drastically diminished?

Six8 mag on the way here, I'd be happy to forward it to you if you have some tests you'd like to run once I play with it a few days.

Stan, I couldn't find anyone who owned one to borrow from!

[stanc]

Elander just released a Grendel specific magazine. It looks like the demand was there and still is.

For Grendel magazines that fit the standard AR15 receiver, yes, of course there's a demand.

But I was addressing the subject of this thread: Six8-type receivers and mags. I really don't see much of a market for that.

I'd agree we should acquire a 68 mag, but if it won't work I don't think this will be pointless. Is Magpul not expanding it's production capacity as we speak in a pmag market that has drastically diminished?

I have no idea. I checked their website, and the Pmags they offer are for rifles which are at least fairly popular, not for guns that may number in the dozens (like 6.5 Grendel Mini-30s, for example).

If the Six8 Pmags are incompatible with Grendel cartridges, how do you propose getting MagPul to develop a "Six5" magazine, when there is no assurance the market would ever be large enough for them to make an acceptable profit?

[stanc]

Six8 mag on the way here, I'd be happy to forward it to you if you have some tests you'd like to run once I play with it a few days.

Stan, I couldn't find anyone who owned one to borrow from!

Heh, heh. Well, if only Variable was a bit more adventuresome, he'd have bought a Six8 receiver set and Pmags, and we'd know for sure if a "Six5" rifle would work!

[stanc]

Regarding 6.5 Grendel rounds in a Six8 Pmag, I just got this response from Harrison:

Tell the guys on the Grendel forum I tried the Grendel cartridges in a SIX8 Pmag. They bulge the sides enough that loading a mag into a lower is a chore, it will not work IMO. 10 may work in a 30 round if shooting off the bench but no quick mag changes. Definitely not for combat. The SIX8 pmags are very wide 1.078 VS 1.115 for a 308 pmag. I think they could make a Pmag specifically for the Grendel that would fit in a LWRC SIX8 lower.