Howa Mini Extractor/Headspace Issue

[JEFE_SCOTEZ]

New to the forum. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge already here.

I've recently acquired a 6.5 Grendel Howa Mini barreled action from Brownells. I've got a Bell and Carlson stock, 20 MOA Warne rail, dies, primers, a variety of projectiles, powder, and 100 pcs of new Lapua Brass in hand. Oregon bottom metal in route. Optic TBD. Life is good.

Momentarily.

My first issue came while setting up my new Redding Type S die. The decapping rod seemed to be too long even as I was setting it up. I had it all the way up, but it seemed to still be dangerously low. I thought it was odd, but raised it as much as possible and went to very gently size my first case to see if the expander ball would clear the webbing. Zero resistance on the lever pull. I mean zero. I thought that was odd. Ran another case. Same thing. I found one with a clearly mashed neck. Minimal resistance and it still didn't look round. I pulled everything apart. Firstly, i can put the brand new lapua into the die with my fingers with zero resistance and move it around(not a ton) but there is room. Secondly, the expander ball is .243. I do have a Lee Pacessetter set. I sized 20 cases with the Lee set with some normal amount of resistance. I'm calling Redding in the am. That die set is completely bogus? Yes?

MY REAL QUESTION: I have my brand new 6.5 Grendel Mini barreled action. I chamber an empty case for fun. Chambers fine, does not extract. Stays in the chamber, not stuck. Tipping the gun barrel to the sky and it falls out. I do this dozen of more times. 90% of the time a hand fed case won't extract. I loaded up 20 rounds to Sierra specs. I cycle quite a few rounds through the rifle, some magazine fed, some hand. Still have poor extraction rate. I double clean everything with no different results. I play with it quite a bit. The extractor itself seems fine. If I hold a round straight with the bolt and mash it against the bolt face, the extractor appears to work fine. After some google spirals I decide to try and check my headspace in a redneck way. I put 3 layers of masking tape on the back of an empty cartridge and trim to shape. The brand new Lapua brass with 3 layers of masking tape(.011 in) will still chamber in the gun. Can we call that a no go gauge? Can the extractor not engage because the round is too far forward in the chamber because of excessive headspace?

More info: I've checked the brass vs saami spec as best i can without real gauges. I don't think the brass is bad. What complicates this more is that i can chamber an empty case a dozen times without the extractor catching it. If I chamber it and dry fire, the extractor will be on it and work normally. If anyone cares, its new Lapua Bras, sized and trimmed. 120 gr Sierra MK seated to Sierra Specs.

Do I have a headspace issue or something with the extractor/spring??

I plan to have extended conversations with Redding and Brownells/Howa in the am.

Thanks,

-Jefe

[tdbru]

Jefe,
i wish you'd had some factory ammo to try.

from your description it does sound like excessive headspace.

but new brass might be even smaller than minimum, i'm not sure.

a go gauge and a no go gauge would be the best test of headspace. i don't have a set for the 6.5 Grendel.

i'm hesitant to say overlong chamber though. i suppose one could slip through QC in any company. i more suspect your lot of brass was made to a really minimal print.

let us know what Brownells' has to say.

and yes, your die set sounds suspicious. something funny there too. with industry mfgr's running full tilt boogie and still not keeping up with demand, it's possible a mixup on dies i suppose. someone got in too big a hurry perhaps?

let us know what Redding has to say too.
-tdbru

[grayfox]

Roger that on new cases being shorter than spec, especially the base to shoulder/datum. You need to take some real measurements of your cases, with a headspace comparator (use the B - 0.350, insert). And OAL's, which are probably shorter than saami as well. Brass mfr's do this so all cases will fit all actions... a bit cheaper too (less brass material).
Get some factory ammo also, even if only 1 or 2 boxes. brass case, not any of the steel ones.
Not to say that howa never has a problem, but I have had 3 howa's and have one now, and those have not had any headspace/extractor problems.
The Redding sounds strange, also agree. Keep in mind that Lapua uses a smaller diameter flash hole so "regular" pins are too thick. Don't know if this is what you're seeing but good to keep in mind. something like 0.61 vs 0.72, something like that (I'm only using Hornady, Alex-A and starline).

Lapua is good brass.

The saami drawing is on here as a sticky as I recall.

[ricsmall]

[JEFE_SCOTEZ]

Roger that. I figure I'll mostly have the decapping rod removed, but thought it was funny. Redding confirmed this am that my decapping rod isn't correct in length or expander ball size(should be .261). They're expediting immediately.

I'm going to venture out today for my chamber question. I think I can find somewhere to gouge me on ammo. I'm not that hopeful on finding someone with a No-go gauge.

Thanks guys,

-Jefe

[JEFE_SCOTEZ]

I ventured out and bought a box of Hornady 123 SST factory ammo and it cycled fine. According to the shoulder bump gauge it is .007 longer than the Lapua brass, so there's my issue. The gun will extract the empty brass reliably if I dry fire, so I don't think it will be a problem.

I'll just have to fire form the Lapua brass and then shoulder bump, which was my intention anyway.

Thanks guys, looks like I'm good to go with the exception of the decapping rod on the bushing die, and Redding is sending one today.

[Oso Polaris]

I had a similar issue with a 223AI, but it had a 40-60% failure to fire rate with factory ammo. I used a competent gunsmith and we dissecting the issue, which turned out to be all of the factory ammo was .005" - .014" short of spec at the shoulder so firing pin was lightly hitting the primer and throwing the cartridge further down into the chamber. My solution was buying new LC brass and fire forming from scratch.

You may encounter a similar issue with the excess headspace using the Lapua brass. To reduce the risk of this happening you might consider loading your bullets long (jam into the lands) and use a full charge of powder to quickly seal the neck and push shoulder forward. I would start with a small test batch. If you notice heavy excessive soot on outside of case then you might need to create a false shoulder to help seal the chamber and aid expansion.

[garyrapp55]

The use of the expander ball is optional, it comes with the dies. I suppose I could see using it for the first sizing but all my Lapua brass was good to go right from the box. In general, your right, it is bass akwards to buy a bushing die and use the expander ball.

Howa is not incapable of error. My sons Grendel took months of tinkering and 1 return to LSI before I got it to shoot worth keeping. Boyd's was part of the problem though.

[Oso Polaris]

My case prep has evolved over past year as COVID has given me time and yet nowhere to go so I've been forced to come up with obscure ways to keep myself sane. I have spent a lot of time on case forming, load development and testing for a couple of wildcats. The end result is that everything is now getting annealed, and I am only using the expander ball in resize dies for bulk brass for plinking (ie AR15 brass to iron out dented case mouths). Everything else is getting the FL Resize (no expander) and then Expander Mandrel for consistent neck tension. It's an easy step that really does make a difference.

A friends claims that these changes to his case prep have helped his 300BO to shoot 1.5" at 300 yards... proper neck tension. I hear this is considered mud flinging amongst Grendel fans!!!

[A5BLASTER]

I ventured out and bought a box of Hornady 123 SST factory ammo and it cycled fine. According to the shoulder bump gauge it is .007 longer than the Lapua brass, so there's my issue. The gun will extract the empty brass reliably if I dry fire, so I don't think it will be a problem.

I'll just have to fire form the Lapua brass and then shoulder bump, which was my intention anyway.

Thanks guys, looks like I'm good to go with the exception of the decapping rod on the bushing die, and Redding is sending one today.

You cant bump the shoulder with a bushing neck die. It only sizes the neck.

You will need a body die to go along with it.

I use Redding's dies with my cz grendel, bushing neck die and body die.

You still have to bump the shoulder after 2 or 3 shots on the brass to keep it from getting to long and not closing the bolt.

[garyrapp55]

My type S bushing die for my 708 is not neck only, it sizes the body and bumps the shoulder. Maybe that's what he has too?

[Oso Polaris]

As A5Blaster indicated, if you have the Type S Neck Sizing Die (Bushing) then you will also need some way to resize the body of the case. You can either buy a Type S Full Length Sizing Die (Bushing) or simply buy a Body Sizing Die.

There are two styles of Bushing Dies: (1) Full Length Sizing or (2) Neck Sizing.
Redding Type S Full Length Sizing Die #77478 - This resize the Neck and Body (including bumping the shoulder). If you remove the internal parts of this die then it can also be used as a Body Only sizing die.
Redding Type S Neck Sizing Die #81478 - This only resizes the Neck, and does not touch the body or shoulder.
Redding Body Die #75478 - This only resizes the Body (including bumping the shoulder), and does not touch the neck.

[garyrapp55]

I did not see that you specified which you had. Good luck.

[JEFE_SCOTEZ]

I did not see that you specified which you had. Good luck.

Sorry, I've been out of touch.

I have the FL Type S die.

I think I've decided I'm going to shoot through the first 100 pieces of Lapua braswith the bullets touching or maybe a smidge into the lands(to ensure they're seated against the bolt face).

After that I'll size with the Type S FL to try and minimize the shoulder bump I get until it's grown enough. I'll be measuring the whole time.

Thanks guys!