Originally posted by chase
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Who actually uses the SAAMI reamer on AR barrels?
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Originally posted by smokinghole View PostThis cloudy chamber BS might just drive me towards another caliber completely. I didnt think buying a barrel woukd be so difficult nor so expensive compared to other calibers. Sure they dont have the distance or performance that drew me to the grendel but I will not likely be fortunate enough to stretch this caliber's legs in my area.
Depending on what I hear from Mark this desire to build a grendel AR may be dead in the water for a while.
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Originally posted by smokinghole View PostThis cloudy chamber BS might just drive me towards another caliber completely. I didnt think buying a barrel woukd be so difficult nor so expensive compared to other calibers. Sure they dont have the distance or performance that drew me to the grendel but I will not likely be fortunate enough to stretch this caliber's legs in my area.
Depending on what I hear from Mark this desire to build a grendel AR may be dead in the water for a while.
I'm not sure where the perception of higher prices for the caliber is coming from. Lilja barrels cost what they do in any caliber, as do JP. Barrel quality, type, and features will drive the prices, not what reamer they used.
High-end barrels that shoot really well cost more. The cloudiness you see is something I and many others deal with on a regular basis with .308, .223, .260 Rem, .300 Win Mag, or any other caliber because certain critical components for manufacturing can be all over the map when comparing them to what the customer asked for.
Across the industry, especially in AR10's, we are seeing colossal abortions of chamber jobs, where cartridges will not even fit into chambers right off the bat. There simply is no way the barrels were made correctly. Guys are trying to piece together .308 AR's, and can't even chamber a round.
A lot of barrels will jam bullets into the rifling, so the bullet gets pulled if you try to clear the action, and powder dumps all over. It's just the way the industry has evolved. People want instant gratification, at the cheapest prices, with sub-MOA results, and now. Much of the media out there basically tells them they can expect this. You can have:
* Cheap
* Fast
* Quality
Pick one. I can tell you right now that Mark uses a SAAMI spec reamer on his 6.5 Grendel line, and he will make it with the reamer concentric to the bore, with true and concentric threads. His barrels, when mounted in a square and tight upper, will and have shot 1/2 MOA for me and other customers, even from lightweight builds, with quality ammunition that has tight ES.
One customer reported back that he's getting 1" 5rd groups at 200yds, and one of those rounds is opening the group to 1". The other 4 are all touching. To make a barrel like that takes attention to detail, patience, and know-how.
You will have the same battle to deal with in another caliber. Been there, done that, continue to see it. Pick a known quality machinist, barrel smith, rifle-builder, and pay him what he deserves, or settle for less. That's what it comes down to.Last edited by LRRPF52; 02-06-2015, 06:38 PM.NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
www.AR15buildbox.com
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For the Record, Precision Firearms uses only Grendel SAAMI Chambers. For all barrels types that we chamber, Bartlein, Krieger, Lilja. We also only use Grendel Bolts with .136 Bolt face. Any other bolt face is NOT a GRENDEL BOLT. Type I as it is known, is a 7.62x39 Bolt. Type 1 and Type 2 was named as such by BHW."Precision - The Pinnacle of Perfection."
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Originally posted by cory View PostNo Grendel II is a designation Satern uses for a chamber that is NOT SAAMI Spec.
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I'm not one to avoid paying for quality, I tend to wear redwing boots, a filson jacket, and have some really nice hand made pipes. Here is where my perception of grendel being an expensive build based on barrel alone. There seem to be very reputable barrel makers making a range of barrels from low, to mid, to high end for a variety of calibers from 5.56, .300blk, .308 and so forth. With the grendel I might be looking or a mid range Toyota (reliable well built, yada yada) but I finding only Lexus (premium leather and all that jazz, really nice but not absolutely necessary) . I'm a detail oriented person and I'm not going to buy a non-SAAMI at this point. So either I drop the money for one of the match barrels (seems to be only option) or I switch calibers and find me a reputable mid range barrel. This is the beauty of a free market, choices. It's just that for some reason the grendel market is very small and the only makers using SAAMI reamers are the high end match barrel machinists.
I understand that the reamer doesn't influence the barrel price. The issue is that only the best match barrel makers seem to be using the SAAMI reamer. I realized that all Lilja barrels are the same prices as any other caliber. It's just that a Lilja barrel costs X and if I got a more common caliber I assume I could find a "toyota" level barrel for X-$300. That is all.
Here's another thought. If the caliber is to increase further in popularity with the proper SAAMI chamber I could see more people getting into if if there were mid level barrels. It's just like any other product or market I think. People come in for or are attracted by some lower cost offerings, they begin to like it, and then they end up buying Kreiger and Lilja. Now if someone wants to get in, they pretty much have to go straight to Kreiger/Lilja for a SAAMI chamber. Just an observation from a unbiased guy new to the caliber that is not a long range shooter . It applies to pipes/pipe tobacco, cigars, and craft beer (I'm a brewer and former Cigar shop employee), and I'm sure many other "hobby" type product markets. Introduce new comers to good mid-level cost product and you tend to keep them coming back and you can watch them buy more product and more expensive product. Unless barrel making is different there has to be well made mid level barrels on the way to high quality higher end barrels. There were good $4-$5 cigars just as there are good $15 smokes.
If I do continue with the build it will be with Mark at PF.
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I get it, there are variants out there but I want a saami chamber. Its that simple. Some barrels are grendel some are variants. If what I have researched is true the saami chamber will work with a larger range of projectiles, and I like flexability.
If the saami chamber didnt offer anything why would have a company spent the effort and money to make the chamber?Last edited by smokinghole; 01-21-2015, 05:55 PM.
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I started off in the same boat as you. I now have 4 different chambers. Again, if you just bought a barrel and shot it, reloaded for it, etc. without ever coming to the interwebs, you'd be happy as a hog in slop.
There is a reason there was such a dust-up over this. But it does not concern you or I.
No matter the chamber as long as it was correctly cut, i suspect you will be happy. For all practical purposes, it does not matter.
Ok, so we all know that the gredel was designed with the compound throat to be able to shoot a variety of bullet weights. I know this may have been covered before but wading through the mass of discussions on the topic is daunting and this might help some others as well. What do you give up in some of the variant chambers? I
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I've had good results from a BHW barrel chambered in 264 LBC with Type 2 bolt. Main reason I let it go was because I didn't want to keep brass separate from a SAAMI Grendel. With the different sizes in chamber necks, I was concerned about consistent neck tension when resizing mixed brass. If sticking with one barrel, I would be plenty happy with a BHW. Mine shot sub-moa with a variety of bullets and loads.Drifter
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first off let me apologize to PF. I hear all of this back and forth talk about SAAMI. And I just want to make sure I am making the right choice. Now as to what is being talked about here the way I see it if you're looking for something just to bang around them what do you want the 6.5 giendel four. I thought the purpose of the Grendel was to push the limits of the AR 15 platform. If you're looking to test your skills of pusher your limits that what is the problem with paying top dollar for a top barrel . Otherwise why bother.
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Well after almost going 5.56 for a barrel I found out Lilja had some barrels on their facebook page going for VERY good prices with the .264lbc chamber. I looked at a lot of drawings read more and decided as some suggested, I don't care about the compound throat. So I picked up an already cerakoted black Lilja 311 contour for $250. I almost went with a 318 profile but something about the 311 being already black cerakote made it an easier choice. The difference between the barrels was a few ounces or a couple inches. I doubt I'd ever end up shooting in a situation where the extra 2" of length is going to matter for me.
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I'll be captain obvious here, but Alexander Arms of course uses the SAAMI reamer. I and another forum member were at a local range yesterday shooting 4 different 6.5 Grendel's.
With the 22" Lilja SAAMI chambered bull fluted barrel directly from Lilja/ Seekins billet set receiver build I did for him, I shot a rapid string at 100yds with a cadence like this:
One-and-a-two-and-a-three-and-a-four-and-a-five.
2nd through 5th rounds were into .3", 1st round opened the group to .6" @ 100yds. He shot a 5rd group with it slow-fire that was smaller than that. Winds were really heavy, with stiff enough gusts that I had to weigh down and anchor my soft cases (filled with mags and ammo already), and my spotting scope ocular cap blew off the tripod where I had it pinned.
My little lightweight 17.6" Grendel with the SAAMI chamber was able to print a .984" 5rd group in those winds. Most groups were no bigger than 1.5", when I let inconsistencies in my position factor in, which was hard to avoid with the wind blowing on me. AA cut that chamber for me in the 17.6" Lilja barrel. 3rd groups are easy to keep sub-MOA, but I like to see a larger picture of how I and the gun work together, and extend my ability to be consistent. If I shot from a rest with it, it would be easier to group with.
I will also say that after comparing a 7.62x39 bolt that was used for my friend's 6mm Grendel build, the .136" bolt face is the more sensible way to go because it allows you to have a more substantial extractor lip mass, as well as a large enough groove for the thicker Grendel rims.NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
www.AR15buildbox.com
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