Poor Choice

[Klem]

I don't like leaving it too long to dispatch a wounded animal even it means closing on it while it is still moving. Just shoot it a second time up close. Obviously not holding the barrel against the animal but close enough not to miss. I try hitting the animal at the intersecting cross between the ears and eyes for a quick light's-out. This used to be the preferred method for humanely dispatching horses in the WW1 Officer's Manual.

Sometimes I leave the long gun in the vehicle so I use a small tomahawk carried on the belt and be careful of where the legs are (we're not permitted to use handguns for hunting where I am). Tomahawks mean you don't have to put hands on the animal to use a blade. That little bit extra stand-off helps.

[Badgerland Hunter]

I'm going to +1 the comment from rabiddawg on using target/match loads. I know all the Berger Boyz are going to light up on this, but using match ammo seems a bad option, because:

1) The characteristics of match ammo are designed for long-range paper punching, not game killing.
2) The risk of shallow penetration, blow-up and/or core separation are much greater = wounded animal, not dead animal.

Now, I know this will also invite pictures and tales of beasts killed with match ammo. Heck, I'll "me, too" myself ... I once dispatched a doe with my Garand using 168 gr. Hornady AMAX factory loads ... took 2 shots to put her down I could see right where she went down, but there was no blood trail; on gutting and skinning we could tell both AMAX rounds didn't penetrate much. Never again. Point being, just because one can hunt with match loads/bullets, doesn't mean it's the best option IMO.

Me, personally, I want a blood trail Stevie Wonder could follow.

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't get hung up on design intent. Far too many designers/inventors focus on one goal without realizing other potential. Slinky, Silly Putty, Viagra, Propecia, Colca cola, Listerine, cellophane and many others were designed for other purposes. And to be honest, I don't believe there is a single match/target rifle bullet out there that is designed for punching paper. Not a single one of them is designed for their performance on paper products. Instead, they are designed for things like barrel performance and flight capabilities to be more accurate rounds. A variety of such rounds have been used and are used for hunting purposes, such as the AMAX round which is a round that was highly touted by many Grendel hunters for deer hunting and other similar or smaller game.

A round designed for target shooting does not rule out its use for hunting purposes just because of design intent.

Funny thing about rounds that come apart and have core separation, some work exceptionally well for hunting and are marketed as hunting rounds. Here, I refer specifically to the Hornady SST round. When I do recover them, it is the exception, not the rule that the jacket and core are together and when I do find them together, there has been significant loss of jacket and core. These rounds are failing in the exact way in which you don't like, but as it turns out, are in a manner that makes them very effective as hunting rounds, often producing multiple wound channels or expanded wound channels.

As for massive blood trails, that is often a product of where the bullet goes than of bullet construction, though no doubt bullet construction/destruction may influence it. In the case of the OP, there are a lot of non-critical structures in much of the neck. A bullet hitting above the spine may very well pass only through muscle tissue, regardless of bullet type, and not produce any sort of significant blood trail. Much of the bleeding may, in fact, be internal. Above midline body shots that don't hit the lungs may produce relatively little external bleeding as well if a major blood vessel is not hit near the entry and/or exit wounds.

[Drillboss]

I don't get hung up on design intent. Far too many designers/inventors focus on one goal without realizing other potential. Slinky, Silly Putty, Viagra, Propecia, Colca cola, Listerine, cellophane and many others were designed for other purposes. And to be honest, I don't believe there is a single match/target rifle bullet out there that is designed for punching paper. Not a single one of them is designed for their performance on paper products. Instead, they are designed for things like barrel performance and flight capabilities to be more accurate rounds. A variety of such rounds have been used and are used for hunting purposes, such as the AMAX round which is a round that was highly touted by many Grendel hunters for deer hunting and other similar or smaller game.

A round designed for target shooting does not rule out its use for hunting purposes just because of design intent.

Funny thing about rounds that come apart and have core separation, some work exceptionally well for hunting and are marketed as hunting rounds. Here, I refer specifically to the Hornady SST round. When I do recover them, it is the exception, not the rule that the jacket and core are together and when I do find them together, there has been significant loss of jacket and core. These rounds are failing in the exact way in which you don't like, but as it turns out, are in a manner that makes them very effective as hunting rounds, often producing multiple wound channels or expanded wound channels.

As for massive blood trails, that is often a product of where the bullet goes than of bullet construction, though no doubt bullet construction/destruction may influence it. In the case of the OP, there are a lot of non-critical structures in much of the neck. A bullet hitting above the spine may very well pass only through muscle tissue, regardless of bullet type, and not produce any sort of significant blood trail. Much of the bleeding may, in fact, be internal. Above midline body shots that don't hit the lungs may produce relatively little external bleeding as well if a major blood vessel is not hit near the entry and/or exit wounds.

I learned two days ago that blood trails aren't automatic. Shot a whitetail doe (in a group of 5 or 6). I saw the bullet kick up dust behind her and was pretty sure of where she left the field into the woods. There wasn't a drop of blood on the edge of the field at that spot. We looked all along the edge for a blood trail, thinking we may have mixed her up with another one in the ensuing furball.

My wife insisted on looking further down that original trail before we left and we found her about 30 yards in. The shot was a little high and a little back, with lung damage. I think it just took some time for the chest cavity to fill up and start leaking out of the holes.

[BluntForceTrauma]

A round designed for target shooting does not rule out its use for hunting purposes just because of design intent.

As an example, more than one Sierra MatchKing "target" bullet has been launched in anger via 7.62x51 M118LR and 5.56 Mk262.

[Frontier Gear]

Hornady SST removed from a deer shot at 230 yards.

bullet.jpg

[Kswhitetails]

As an example, more than one Sierra MatchKing "target" bullet has been launched in anger via 7.62x51 M118LR and 5.56 Mk262.

A few more than one I'd wager. And with great success and results too...

[Arkhangel5]

To the OP, I will say lesson learned. Sometimes it just doesnt go your way.

I am a competition shooter, I love accuracy, and if I can get booku speed with it, I am really happy.

With that mindset, I went hunting and I used a 'hunting' bullet, 30 cal 150gr Spitzer Boattail. Out of a 308 I drove that bullet over 2900fps, but it was sub 1/2moa accurate. I thought I was all set.

Went hunting, snuck up on a doe in a creek, shot was 75yds, shot a perfect double lung, saw the hit, saw the impact of pass thru, but thru the boiler room, dead deer rite?

Nope, deer took off kind of unsteady, I did not take a follow up shot(coulda, shoulda). Never recovered that deer, searched for over 4hrs in some reallythick bush, followed blood trails, never found.

I thought I had to be the worst hunter on the planet, felt sick etc.

My point is, sometimes it just doesnt go your way, even when you check all the boxes. The deer have other ideas.

In retrospect, my mistake was that I made that bullet go too fast, it zipped rite thru and never expanded, because the shot was too close.

All the deer I have taken since are with bullets going slower.

SY

[Klem]

Arkangel,

I'm going to respectfully disagree here. I'm a fan of 'speed-kills'; the faster the better. The phenomenon of the temporary wound cavity (TWC) in the wake of the bullet is what I am referring to. The idea that flesh is disrupted and bones cracked far greater than the diameter of the bullet and without the bullet touching this affected area to do the damage. Slow bullets do not have this TWC and so rely on damaging via a crush trail which is enhanced by their ability to expand. For example, a .45ACP handgun with a big hollow front. Bullets travelling three times as fast however destroy flesh in their wake. If you can get a bullet to expand with a TWC then you have the best of both worlds as the expansion acts as speed brakes meaning the bullet dumps all its energy on the target instead of heading out the other side taking precious momentum with it. Greater surface area means more cutting of flesh and vessels, but still don't discount the TWC.

I remember seeing an old US Army medical video showing the damage and discoloration of flesh caused by TWC injuries. The necessary debridement of dead flesh that then needed to occur before the guys were sewn back up. While debridement is part of the healing process it still demonstrates the damage of high velocity vs. low velocity. I have also done some subsonic hunting with 300BLK; enough to know the shock/trauma is just not there. Slow heavy rounds tend to laser-beam through the animal causing far less shock/trauma than high velocity. It then becomes more about accurate shot placement and almost always a coup-de-grace is required to dispatch the animal.

For maximum effect I'm convinced a high velocity round which is designed to do something more on hitting flesh is the most efficient killer. Something to aid transferring destructive energy to the target. Whether that be tumbling or fragmenting or expanding or in larger calibers, exploding.

[Arkhangel5]

Klem,
I am not questioning your premise. I am pretty sure that deer was dead, it just didnt know it yet.

The point I was trying to make was even when you check all the boxes, you are sometimes not going to get the deer/animal you are hunting.

In my case, I deliberately chose a 'hunting bullet' and not a match bullet to give the target the respect it deserves, and it didn't work out for me.

After that incident, I became a bigger fan of the high shoulder shot. I would rather lose a bit of meat if it meant I didn't get a runner. I don't like the feeling of losing an animal that I just shot on purpose.

SY

[Klem]

Klem,
I am not questioning your premise. I am pretty sure that deer was dead, it just didnt know it yet.

The point I was trying to make was even when you check all the boxes, you are sometimes not going to get the deer/animal you are hunting.

In my case, I deliberately chose a 'hunting bullet' and not a match bullet to give the target the respect it deserves, and it didn't work out for me.

After that incident, I became a bigger fan of the high shoulder shot. I would rather lose a bit of meat if it meant I didn't get a runner. I don't like the feeling of losing an animal that I just shot on purpose.

SY

I hear you.
Klem

[AZBackcountry]

I shot my 1st bull elk with Rem Core-Lokt 150 gr from my 7mm Mag. 1st shot was quartering to me shot 20 yards, 2nd broad side 12 yards and the 3rd quartering away at 20 yards. All 3 shots went through lungs. The 1st and second never touched bone and never expanded. They looked like I had shot field tipped arrows through the elk. The 3rd hit a rib on the way out and blew a fist sized hole through the left shoulder and never bled a drop on the ground. The herd that was trotting by me stop so he did too about 50 yards away in heavy brush with another bull too close for a safe shot. I kept the cross-hairs on him as all kinds of doubtful thoughts spun through my head. As the herd moved because of my scent he took one step forward and dropped.
I had done nothing wrong and had a bad case of Murphy's Law. This happened before ballistic tipped ammo.
I shoot Berger 105gr Hybrids in my 6mm Creedmoor and at 472 yards on a mule deer last year they worked great in a 26 mph quartering towards me wind.
A couple of weeks ago my son shot a bull elk with Berger 230gr Hybrid out of a 300 Win Mag at 621 yards in a 18 1/2 mph crosswind across 1 canyon and up a 2nd. He fell over backwards and did not move. Last year I saw him drop a mule deer at 643 yards in a 21 mph gusting wind; same thing.
I past on both the shots with my 7mm Mag that my son made because my ethical limit is 600 yards. I work too many hours to practice enough to be able to make them even with my son's 300 Win Mag. He uses a Harris bi-pod on the front and back of his rifle. I watched him over two dozen times in the Swarovski spotting scope drop game in their tracks with 4 different calibers.
My point: know your rifle, ammo and limitations. Then there is Murphy's Law. Oh yea, then there is a Javelina that double lunged broad-headed, poke tested, got his picture taken, dragged over to a tree and then jumped up popping his jaws. An arrow in the eye socket through the left brain finally put him down.
Then, cow elk was hit by a truck that it totaled, crippled hung up in a fence, shot 3 times at close range in the brain by Fish and Game Warden, winch noosed around it's neck, winched into his truck and then tries getting up on it's front legs. We helped him drag it out of his truck. He shoots it in the brain with 2 loads of 00 buck from a 12 ga and it is still kicking. I guess it did not want to be eaten by rehab birds and mammals.

Son's 340" bull shot at 621 yrds 2 1/2 hours and a mile backpack trip. 8 loads of de-boned meat. It took 12 1/2 hours from shot to ice chest in 26*F with 3 of us. 52 minutes to de-bone for backpacking.

[LRRPF52]

I'm going to +1 the comment from rabiddawg on using target/match loads. I know all the Berger Boyz are going to light up on this, but using match ammo seems a bad option, because:

1) The characteristics of match ammo are designed for long-range paper punching, not game killing.
2) The risk of shallow penetration, blow-up and/or core separation are much greater = wounded animal, not dead animal.

Now, I know this will also invite pictures and tales of beasts killed with match ammo. Heck, I'll "me, too" myself ... I once dispatched a doe with my Garand using 168 gr. Hornady AMAX factory loads ... took 2 shots to put her down I could see right where she went down, but there was no blood trail; on gutting and skinning we could tell both AMAX rounds didn't penetrate much. Never again. Point being, just because one can hunt with match loads/bullets, doesn't mean it's the best option IMO.

Me, personally, I want a blood trail Stevie Wonder could follow.

Berger has a target line of bullets (like the one used by the OP) and a hunting line of bullets.

The hunting line uses thinner jackets so that expansion is promoted on impact.