NV for hog hunting

[Allen Roberts]

Thermal scopes have a lot of advantages over nv. However, within say 100 yds looking at a standing hog on a plot or an opening in the woods, I will kill every hog using a $500.00 nv that you will using a two-five thousand dollar thermal. When distance, running hogs, or in thick woods come into play, thermal scopes win out easily. One problem thermals prevent is the problem of sitting on a thick wallet. A cheap 3x9 scope from Walmart will kill a deer just as dead as an Schmitt and Bender at sixty yds. How much are willing to pay to look him over before you shoot? Thermals are great, but NV scopes will work also.

[grayfox]

Well. Sounds like you've made up your mind...
Case closed.
What need is there of any evidence or other perspectives...?

[Klem]

Greyfox,

Mate, I don't think this thread is meant to be a conversation.

[Allen Roberts]

[Redomen]

[Double Naught Spy]

Guys, Allen is 100% correct. Under the very narrow set of circumstances that he described, he can probably shoot just as well with a cheap $500 NV (Gen 1 or Digital NV) scope. He is right that most hunters shoot within 100 yards.

So looking at his criteria, clear view, open area, stationary hog, short distance, it is the type of shot you see a lot of kids making to take their first night time hog. My 12 year old daughter's first hog was at 85 yards.

Now, add high grass, overhanging vegetation, rain, fog, or snow, for example, and Allen's capabilities are going in the dumpster. Why? He will need to be using an IR illuminator to actually be able to see worth a darn. That IR light will reflect off of anything in the foreground in front of the hog. Imagine shining your flashlight at your bushes at night to try to find a football somebody threw into the bushes. Will you see the football? Nope. You will see the leaves of the bushes because the leaves will be reflecting back shot a greater percentage of the light than whatever light that might be reaching the football is reflecting back.

Now, if it is a nice calm night, he is going to probably only get one shot. That is because the smoke from his shot will hang in the air and the light from his IR illuminator is going to be reflected off the smoke and effectively blind him. If it is a calm and humid night, this 'white out' condition can last up to 4 seconds. Before the smoke clears, he won't know if his hog went down or managed to run away and if it ran, likely won't have a clue as the direction it ran. On this, I speak from experience as I shot hogs and coyotes exclusively with Gen I, Gen II, and Digital Night Vision for a couple of years.

Now, if there is a decent breeze, say close to 10 mph or more, he may not even notice the smoke beyond a quick flash like somebody was taking his photograph.

Another shortfall of night vision is that camo works. A hog that blends with its background will be difficult to see with night vision. For example, a tan hog in tan grass will be much harder to see than a black hog in tan grass. Coyotes are particularly problematic, save for the reflectivity of their eyes.

And sure enough, most hunters shoot within 100 yards. Why? Most hunters really aren't very good shots. They don't practice. They don't maintain their shooting skills. Most don't attempt to improve their shooting skills. Most hunters are hunters like I am a water skier. I get to go a couple of times a year, but the real enjoyment of the outing isn't the brief time I am on skis, but everything else. I am not knocking said hunters. They are good enough to make their kills inside of 100 yards and so that is as good as they need to be. They often plan their hunts so that they won't need to shoot beyond their skill levels.

Allen likened the cheap NV/thermal situation to a cheap Walmart scope/S&B scope for hunting at 60 yards and that he would be just as good with the cheap Walmart scope. My thought on that was that it was only 60 yards. Why do you even need a scope for daylight hunting at that distance for something as big as a deer or hog? A clear view on an open field and a stationary hog and I can kill it just as dead with iron sights as he can with fancy Wal-mart optics.

I won't knock it. Some of today's cheap NV is pretty darned impressive stuff given the cost versus capability. I am all for the notion that if your gear works for you and your needs, then there is no problem. However, the distinction about cheap nv versus thermal isn't about kill success rates, but capability of seeing. That $4K thermal is going to allow you to spot and identify targets sooner and at greater distances than you can with cheap NV. If you are doing spot and stalk, you are going to be able to see and identify targets at greater range, see targets that may be hiding out in the tree line, and see targets that are virtually hidden from NV by obstructions like high grass and with such information, ideally be able to go after more targets. Most of my time hunting with Digital NV was spent also using a thermal for spotting. Even my cheap thermal spotter (a FLIR Scout 320) could spot many things my partner's Gen III PVS14 could not and identify many that his could not.

But yeah, if you got a hog standing out there at 80 yards in a well grazed open pasture, clear view, you can probably shoot it just as well with a $500 NV scope as you could with a $4k thermal scope. If that is the totality of your shooting situation, a thermal will not improve your circumstances.

[gwtx]

What he said

[Klem]

DNS' response is pretty measured and from experience.

At 60m on a moonlit night you may as well use a normal scope, as long as you can see the reticle (illuminated helps). But finding them first and seeing what's behind them for safety is absolutely critical.

I have done my share of hunting at night with spotlights and occasionally with NVD's, but never with thermal. For half of the month you can use a PVS14 behind a scope without an IR torch but for the other half you need assistance. A NVD is good for wondering around in the scrub and driving a Gator with a helmet or soft cap (like Crye's Nightcap). You can unclip the NVD and clip to the gun if you don't have the luxury of more than one. Swinging an IR torch is good for eye reflection but they don't always look back at you. Plus I am convinced animals can see IR light as you train it on them, although they don't seem as spooked as bright white light.

Swings and roundabouts.

[Allen Roberts]

[gwtx]

Allen, I can't tell what kind of experience you've had with thermals, but until I had actually used one for stalking/spotting I had no idea how valuable they are to my type of hunting. Like Klem, and probably many others, I have used spotlights, red lights, IR illuminators, and such. I shot a lot of hogs with the different set ups. I even rigged up a fairly cheap nv monocular with a "Hoglight Destroyer" RedLight strapped to it. It was so powerful you could warm your hands with it if need be
It worked, but still could only make out the eyes and sometimes the head of the hog. Especially the black ones. They suck up light like a black hole. I had a several occasions where I could hear, and smell the hogs, but could not see them because of the fog that had rolled in. I bought a Flir Scout monocular,,,,now I could spot them but still had to look thru my scope to shoot. But, I could get close enough to see them vaguely, but well enough to shoot,,,sometimes.
I bought a pulsar xd38 in 2015 and it opened up a whole new world of hunting. If my pulsar ever quits working, I'll probably not be able to afford another so I'll likely quit hunting. When I was growing up, I thought round steak was good until I tasted a properly cooked 2" thick sirloin done on a pit.

[Allen Roberts]

[gwtx]

I understand the cost concerns. I am semi retired, still working every day on the farm/ranch.
Only way I could do it was to sell off some equipment and a couple other toys. After I closed the deal, I thought, "I can't believe you spent $3k for a scope". I live in a rural area, and the hogs have torn up all the properties around here. I can't really justify it I suppose , but I use my scope every night. I go out for an hour or more on my property, and I have permission(actually requested to hunt) on my neighbors. It's the only "vice" I have left,,,I think. and I really enjoy it. I pedal about a mile to a mile and a half on a mountain bike, and usually walk a bit more stalking , so it's good exercise as well. I did a LOT of research before I decided on the Pulsar, and from what I've seen since, they are still the "best bang for the buck" at the $3K level. Hope you decide to "go for it", you'll really enjoy it . Keep us posted on your progress.
P.S. What kind of rifle do you hunt with. The ability to make follow up shots is amazing with a Grendel and a thermalscope.

[toolsofthetrade]

I agree with DNS