New Marine Corps weapon to replace SAW
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Originally posted by YutYut View Posthttp://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...m27-iar-hk416/
Now if only it were chambered in grendel this could be something real special. Seems like a lost opportunity. Under 12 pounds is a significant weight reduction.
No interchangeable barrel; they'd have been better off with the SCAR16 or the ACR.
Stupid, Stupid, Stupid....
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Yep sure does seem like an m4 with a open bolt firing mod. Im sure they will come out with a larger capacity magazines.
As far as caliber im dissapointed they didn't change. I understand the convinience of saving money by not having new mags/bolts/barrels etc.. Manufactured but its gonna have to happen one day. I have a few friends that SAW gunners so im curious to hear their opinions when they get their hands on em.
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Originally posted by bwaites View PostWell, they could use the new Surefire quad stacks and get 100 rounds, so I guess that would help. But....
I'd be interested to hear LRRP52's take since he has used all of these weapons.
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belt-fed platform. There is zero capability added to the Infantry Squad with a re-hashed Auto Rifleman, like they did with the M16A1 and a bipod before the SAW trials of the 1970's. A 30rd magazine-fed squad support weapon is pretty much worthless, which is why I'm waiting to see how the Surefire and, as of yet unreleased Magpul coffin mags work out.
The Surefire followers are not anti-tilt, because the design couldn't work with them the way they approached feeding quad-stacks into a double-column stagger, but I really didn't have a lot of problems with standard M16 30rd mags with the black followers unless the mag body or lips were damaged either.
I'm of the school that leans towards relying on a belt-fed LMG for any dedicated AUTO platform that is intended to provide fire support for Teams, Squads, and Platoons. The 100rd nutsack for the SAW is a great ammunition carrier/feed source, and should be incorporated into the next LMG. Even if I equip a SAW gunner with an HK IAR, carrying 6x60rd Surefire mags, what does he do with the mags when finished? Drop them in a gigantic dump pouch? What happens to the ammo load that members of his team carry for him to distribute that 800-1200rd+ combat load? I'll tell you what will happen if you hand a bunch of 60rd mags to Joe to put in his assault pack for the SAW gunner...he will have one in his M4 (or M16A4 in the Marines' case), and burn the SAW gunner's ammo, leaving him with 30rd mags.
With a belt-fed, you give a rats about the spent links, and just slap a fresh belt on the feed tray, close the cover, charge the weapon, and continue to fire when appropriate. A good SAW gunner can conduct a rapid nutsack change fairly quickly, but you have the same issue with retaining the nutsacks, but they fill a much smaller profile than the 60rd SF mags, and slip right back into the SAW pouch nicely. I would keep them stored in my SAW pouches, and since you're in the prone when firing a belt-fed LMG most of the time, it was easy for me to work out a load management sequence to account for the nutsacks.
The benefits of the IAR are that everyone in the Fire Team can share magazines, which then backfires possibly as a detriment if guys prefer the 60rd mags. I still think the 60rd mags should be issued if they prove to be reliable, so that at least one Rifleman per Team is carrying one, and staggers the incidence of magazine changes to prevent lulls in fire during contact with the enemy. We used to use 20rd mags for this sometimes, but I'd prefer more ammo in the gun rather than less, especially since the Russians have made a 60rd coffin mag for the AK100/AK74 series, and the 45rd RPK mag is widely used by Spetsnaz and Islamic militants in certain regions of the world, to include the Caucasus.
The Surefire 100rd mag would be a complete NO-GO due to its profile, while the 60rd mag is not bad at all. I'll probably have one if I can get one well below that insane price tag for it ($129!!!???). This HK IAR deal has been going-on for a while, so it's not really news. I think it will come and go, once people realize how bad that system is, and its inappropriateness in the LMG role when the hooahs start dead-lining barrels.
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Originally posted by bwaites View PostOnce again, our military shoots itself in the foot. The HK is just a dolled up M4/M16, with no real long term advantage. 30 round mags in a 600 RPM chassis: yeah that makes sense for a SAW!
No interchangeable barrel....
Stupid, Stupid, Stupid....
The IAR actually makes a lot of sense for the requirements of urban combat that Marines encountered in Iraq:
However, the IAR is a poor choice to provide sustained, supporting fires needed for the long range fights in Afghanistan:
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You still need the same basic capabilities in MOUT as you do in the desert or green. If I'm clearing buildings or advancing through city streets, the SAW gunner from a trail team will provide cover along with the rest of the team for the assaulting or advancing team. What is needed in both types of environments is a weapon that is more maneuverable and lighter, but with the same belt-fed sustained fire capability, as in 100rds on the gun minimum. Something like the KAC LMG or the Ultimax would be much more appropriate, since they are both very compact, lightweight, and use constant recoil.
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Originally posted by LRRPF52 View PostYou still need the same basic capabilities in MOUT as you do in the desert or green. If I'm clearing buildings or advancing through city streets, the SAW gunner from a trail team will provide cover along with the rest of the team for the assaulting or advancing team.
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Originally posted by stanc View PostCheck the Fallujah video above. In the sequence starting @ 1:00, the SAW gunner is right in there with the rest of the team assaulting into the building.
That video only illustrates what I've been telling people about real-world experience with the SAW. It is a piece of garbage. If it was a great weapon, I'd be singing its praises like I do the M4.Last edited by Guest; 10-13-2011, 04:57 AM.
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Originally posted by stanc View PostCheck the Fallujah video above. In the sequence starting @ 1:00, the SAW gunner is right in there with the rest of the team assaulting into the building.
We do still have the M240b but thats not always readily available at a team level. Sometimes not even the squad level. It just sucks to see them invest so much money on a weapon system that doesn't make sense as a replacement SAW. We only receive 8.8% (last time i checked i could be wrong) of the entire defense budget, so if this doesn't work out it makes a big impact.
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HK sure pulled a great marketing scam on the Marines, just like FN and Belgium did with the F-16 licensed contract manufacturing in the Northern NATO allies of Norway, Denmark, and Belgium. I don't know if it's true, but Belgium supposedly tacked the FN Minimi contract as a condition of adopting the F-16 as their primary fighter, but who knows. It definitely is a piece of fricken garbage. In Ranger Regiment, they have dedicated civilian armorers who deploy with each Battalion to keep the weapons in tip-top shape. When I talked with 2nd Ranger Battalion's armorer (a Marine Vietnam combat vet), he said that f****n SAW is the most difficult gun to keep running, and commanded the majority of his attention, while the 240's and M4A1's only really required normally-scheduled maintenance. That was my experience throughout my service, only most units don't and won't ever have that type of competent support at the Battalion-level. You have guys who joined the Army, and were told: "You've been selected to be an armorer." Not gun guys who know what it's like to have your life on the line with a fire-stick between you and some turd burglar from Tim buk tu.
I bet the Marines are going to be really impressed when they try to insert the Surefire 60rd mag in the unique HK mag well, which is not compatible with PMAGs, and then see what happens. We had to force one into a 416 the other day, just to see if it fit. It wouldn't drop free either, and had to be pried out with force. Gotta love some HK right about now...mmm...mmmm.....mmmmm. Check the price tag of an IAR or 416 as well...they're proud of their products, even if they don't work and KABOOM on shooters overseas.
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Originally posted by YutYut View Post
does that look like any fun to clear a house with? No.
I think it would've been a great choice to use the grendel for the IAR. Then it could be argued that accuracy was worth the sacrificeLast edited by Guest; 10-13-2011, 05:17 AM.
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