Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)?

[n9nwo]

I have seen a couple of the vendors turning in their offering of cartridge and rifle. I gather that the Army wants to have a new cartridge/rifle in order to start arming a BCT by 2023.

Anyone hear much of what is going on?

[stanc]

Procurement Numbers

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/03/19/next-generation-squad-weapon-procurement-numbers/

[grayfox]

I just wish they'd get their act together and buy the darn things..... then that will be the "Assault weapon" and the AR won't be an assault weapon any more, it'll be an ancient weapon!!! LOL!!!

[n9nwo]

We will have a lot of M4 carbines left. The Guard and Reserves already have weapons. Thus my guess is that they will convert them to .300 BLK with a 9" barrel and folding stock to make a compact PDW that is able to engage out to 300 meters.

The nice thing is that the work done for the 6.5 Grendel has been the base for this new round.

[LRRPF52]

We will have a lot of M4 carbines left. The Guard and Reserves already have weapons. Thus my guess is that they will convert them to .300 BLK with a 9" barrel and folding stock to make a compact PDW that is able to engage out to 300 meters.

The nice thing is that the work done for the 6.5 Grendel has been the base for this new round.

Where are you seeing anything that would indicate the National Guards and Reserves converting to .300 BLK with 9" barrels?

The only mention of .300 BLK conversions has been for a small amount of PDWs in SOCOM for ADVON parties and maybe some SR work, to replace the MP5SDs and MP5A3s.

[n9nwo]

Where are you seeing anything that would indicate the National Guards and Reserves converting to .300 BLK with 9" barrels?

The only mention of .300 BLK conversions has been for a small amount of PDWs in SOCOM for ADVON parties and maybe some SR work, to replace the MP5SDs and MP5A3s.

that is not what I was attempting to say. If the Active side goes for a new rifle/SAW in 6.8mm then what will they do with the M4 stock they have? The Guard and Reserves are saturated with weapons. And there is move to not transfer to the police. So what do you do with all those M4s? My thought was to convert them to a PDW (9 to 10 inch barrel) and have the support troops use them. The military has long wanted a PDW that could hit out to 300 meters. 300 BLK (7.62x35) would do that. The M1/2 carbine was the first PDW (.3 USC or 7.62x33). The 300 BLK was designed to compete with the 9mm pistol. It has much of the same benefits as did the M1 Carbine.

[stanc]

that is not what I was attempting to say. If the Active side goes for a new rifle/SAW in 6.8mm then what will they do with the M4 stock they have?

The 6.8 NGSW is planned to be issued only to infantry. The M4 carbine will remain in service and continue to be used by other Army personnel.

I expect that any M4 carbines which become surplus to US military needs (due to NGSW fielding) will go in storage, and/or to foreign militaries.

[n9nwo]

I still see a PDW made from the M4 in 300 BLK. Doing the mission that the M1/2 Carbine did. More than a machine pistol or pistol as it does not use a pistol caliber.

[n9nwo]

nice comparison for the 300 BLK vs 6.5 Grendel

https://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_6-5_6-8_300_350.html

[LRRPF52]

that is not what I was attempting to say. If the Active side goes for a new rifle/SAW in 6.8mm then what will they do with the M4 stock they have? The Guard and Reserves are saturated with weapons. And there is move to not transfer to the police. So what do you do with all those M4s? My thought was to convert them to a PDW (9 to 10 inch barrel) and have the support troops use them. The military has long wanted a PDW that could hit out to 300 meters. 300 BLK (7.62x35) would do that. The M1/2 carbine was the first PDW (.3 USC or 7.62x33). The 300 BLK was designed to compete with the 9mm pistol. It has much of the same benefits as did the M1 Carbine.

Since armor defeat has been more and more of a requirement since the 1970s in service rifles and LMGs, and PDWs in the 1990s with the NATO PDW programs that resulted in the FN 5.7x28mm and Hk 4.6x30 PDW cartridges, it wouldn't make any sense to mess around with 300 BLK. Then again, it doesn't make sense to mess with 9mm but they're doing that as we speak.

[stanc]

Fwiw

From Tony Williams' Military Guns & Ammo forum.

Unconfirmed rumors regarding the NGSW program:

1. SIG is the leading contender

2. Textron is performing well, but its weapons are more complex than the SIG offering, so are liked less

3. Recoil is still significant despite mitigation devices

4. Chamber pressure is causing excess barrel and bolt wear

5. The US Army will likely adopt a second non-AP loading of the 6.8 mm and this could well become the primary standard round

6. The most significant rumour is that once testing concludes and a winner is selected, the US Army may decide NOT to field NGSW and continue with legacy calibres. This is because the whole effort and cost of NGSW may not be justifiable.

[biodsl]

Thanks, Stan. I quote two economists

"There's no such thing as a free lunch" ~ Milton Friedman

"There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs" ~ Thomas Sowell

[grayfox]

80 ksi is pushing the limits in a rifle, regardless of what they think. A whole host of unforeseen problems are waiting in the wings.

Personally I think the next great leap forward will be either laser-guided bullets or direct-energy weapons...
"set your weapons to Stun..." - Darth

Bulk armor can always be defeated by pin-point bullet placement, into a weak spot.

[A5BLASTER]

So in summery.

It's still to dam heavy.
It still kicks to dam hard.
It's still a ultra stupid mag and burns barrels.
Its ammo is too forward thinking and to expensive.

End of summary, We will keep useing what we got and spend more money advancing the 22 cal bullet. Sorry tax payers we waisted millions of your dollars for nothing again.

Sincerely. DOD.

[Fess]

The money has not been completely wasted. Projects like this one can push the state of the art foreword. Part of the project, for example is advanced fire-control systems that would permit more precise shooting. The intention was to permit the average soldier to hit long-range targets as well a a designated marksman. The most basic are the "disturbed reticle" scopes that find the range and provide the corresponding aiming point. More advanced ones help recognize targets and only fire when a hit is assured. Some would track the bullet and correct the aiming point based on that. Some of the systems are even more "Buck Rogers" and share information that can be plotted on maps.

To give an idea of what is already out there, the French FELIN system has some of the data sharing functions, image intensifiers, and, if I understand correctly the ability for some rifles to mount cameras and share the images to others in the squad (comes in handy to locate the source of gunfire when the squad is pinned down behind a barrier). That system is crude compared to what the US is looking at, but it is in the field and being tested.

One of the reasons that the new cartridge was high-velocity and low-drag was to increase the effective range against targets. 5.56x45 just does not have a lot of energy left at 600+ yards. The 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 (and 338 Lapua, for that matter) have limited range because they were designed with OAL's for relatively stubby bullets. They can't use long, sleek high-bc bullets that would make optimum use of these new fire control systems.