Looks like True Velocity has delivered their ammo to Army

[Battalion13]

Just found:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/08/07/true-velocity-delivers-their-ngsw-6-8mm-ammunition-to-the-us-army/

[Lemonaid]

[grayfox]

[Fess]

I wonder about the powder capacity of the plastic case. The plastic walls are certainly thicker than brass, but the "neckless" design buys back some volume.
The plastic case does not absorb as much heat as brass one, so I have read that this type of cartridge gains a little efficiency for a given amount of propellant.

[kmon]

I doubt these cartridges use as much energy for the case to fill the chamber as it does to expand the brass to fully fill and seal the chamber, a bit more enerty to put behind the bullet that way. Just a thought

[kmon]

Next time I talk with Jason I will see what his thoughts are. If I am not mistaken True Velocity has been out to his range for some shooting last year. If this is them they are also working on a 50 BMG round

[stanc]

Maybe. Being bullpups, the GD guns have barrels 3-4 inches longer than the conventional configuration used by SIG, so could use a somewhat longer pressure curve.

Then there is also the matter that the PR statement is vague, and does not say what the chamber pressure is. The "safe operating pressures" could still be very high.

[grayfox]

Yeah. I think earlier we were speculating chamber pressures up in the 70-80,000 psi range, which begs the question of thrust back onto the bolt lugs. Larger case diameter... more backward thrust.

[PVBoom]

Can the cases be reused or recycled?

Why didn't they try caseless again? By now H&Ks patents are over.

I googled ammo patents and ran into the article below.
It looks like ammo is a 17 year patent. Patent official in 2010, expiring in 2027.


U.S. loses patent suit, owes ammo maker $15M


Kevin Lilley

The U.S. government will pay a Florida ammunition-maker more than $15.6 million after losing a patent-infringement lawsuit regarding the design of M855A1 and M80A1 rounds.
Liberty Ammunition also will receive royalties of 1.4 cents per round on that ammunition until the patent expires in 2027, according to the U.S. Court of Federal Claims ruling, issued in late December and first reported in the Bradenton (Fla.) Herald. That could mean several millions more in payout: The government, primarily the Army, ordered more than 158 million of the M855A1 rounds in fiscal 2013, the lawsuit states, and Army budget documents show plans to purchase at least 65 million M855A1 rounds of various types in fiscal 2015.

The government is "considering its options on appeal," Justice Department spokeswoman Nicole Navas said in an email. Army public affairs personnel would not comment, citing pending litigation.

"We're very satisfied with the judgment," George Phillips, Liberty's chief executive officer, said Wednesday. "The [court] upheld our contention that the government had violated our patent ... and PJ Marx, our inventor and founder, is now acknowledged as the inventor of enhanced-performance-round technology.
Marx, an established inventor in the music industry who began pursuing a better bullet after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, first spoke with Army officials about his Enhanced Performance Incapacitative Composite round in 2004, the ruling states. Marx filed a patent application on the EPIC round in 2005 which five years later became Patent No. 7,748,325, the patent at the heart of the lawsuit.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2015/01/21/u-s-loses-patent-suit-owes-ammo-maker-15m/

[grayfox]

I'm of the feeling that the new composite round is not reloadable.
But then again, if they can field this new weapon, and with non reloadable ammo, it will then assume the mantel of "Assault rifle" and our beloved AR can drop out of that category!!!!!
Well, one can hope!!

[stanc]

Can the cases be reused or recycled?

I'd be surprised if they can be reloaded, but ISTR reading that they can be recycled.

Why didn't they try caseless again? By now H&Ks patents are over.

Actually, the US Army acquired the caseless technology from H&K several years ago.

They tried to make it work with the LSAT program, but can't seem to fix all the issues.

[Battalion13]

@ Stanc, LSAT started up in the Mid 90s from a US company. I read an article back then regarding military arms, that they were trying to create there version of caseless ammo. They even had prototypes firing from the SAW. Textron bought out the company a several years ago. That's why their leading the caseless telescopic round now. Unless I forgot the part where the primary US company bought the H&K tech, I think I still have the magazine, but I'd have to check my bins.

Edit: After I posted my previous comments, I remembered that the LSAT started off square like the H&K G11s.

[stanc]

@Battalion13, I didn't keep my notes on the LSAT program, so all I can offer for substantiation are a few items found in a brief search:

...the LSAT program chose a licensed version of Dynamit Nobel's caseless ammunition as a route towards its goal of weight reduction.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Ligh...s_Technologies

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a481434.pdf

ARDEC In-House Caseless Ammunition program (H&K/DN)

p. 6 https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...ay/spiegel.pdf

Fourteen [Dynamit-Nobel] processing steps were significantly reduced, resulting in significant reduction in cycle time and production costs.

p. 17 https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...ms/spiegel.pdf

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...4JimSchatz.pdf

[Battalion13]

@Stanc, i did remember that the case design was the same as HK ceaseless ammo. I lost that magazine in rain, so I'll defer to your links.

[Fess]

That last presentation linked in Stan's post ( https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...4JimSchatz.pdf ) is the most thorough "lessons learned" report that I have seen about caseless ammo. It was written by someone who had considerable hands-on experience with the rifles and ammo and has photo's of different failure types. In the end, the author decided that some type of case, even if made of polymer, prevents a lot of the problems caseless ammo experienced in the field.

One thing that I like about True Velocity's "neckless" polymer cartridge design is that it permits a normal throat-leade section, allowing the full-diameter shank of the bullet to be near the lands. With both cased-telescoped and caseless-telescoped rounds, the bullet is inside the cartridge and must travel a significant distance before contacting the rifling. I would think that the long jump to the lands might lead to accuracy issues.