An Army outgunned, early article pushing the Grendel

[grayfox]

one more thought.
In my line (nuclear), independent and diverse and redundant are key topics. So 2 or more lines, capable of same or similar tasks, difference in design/approach or key points, independent of each other; so a fall-down or stoppage of one does not affect the other. Always have a backup; don't allow common-mode failures to get you.

A country that has been (maybe even still) able to be the largest production-machine in the world... ought to be able to do this.

[rickt300]

That was called the .264 USA:

Pretty cool, If indeed we could design the AR15 platform to reliably function at 65K the Grendel would be fine. That would still require a bolt designed for the .441 head diameter and that would mean the barrel extension would also have to be a bit heavier. Is a pound all that horrible?

[Former Cav]

That would still require a bolt designed for the .441 head diameter and that would mean the barrel extension would also have to be a bit heavier. Is a pound all that horrible?

when I was 21 yrs old and a soldier back in 1968 in the "Vietnam Experience" I didn't even think about how much either my M-14 or M-16 weighed. All I cared was that the damned thing worked and that it took the enemy out of the battle with ONE round. There were times when I hit the enemy and I was wondering if the guy was ever going to DIE! That was with the 5.56 and our 55 grain bullets back then.
For a LONG time I thought that an M-16 (AR 15) with TWO big bolt lugs like found on the M-14, and in 6mm Remington Caliber (or 243) would have been a nice design (this was before there was such a thing as a grendel). that 6mm round has a lot more ooomph then a 55 grain squirrel gun round !!!
When you are doing point man, you are not necessarily shooting the most accurately. FAST and deadly is what counts.

[cory]

They launched all kinds of programs over the years looking for an AR-15/5.56 replacement. The most recent one is the NGSW 6.8x51, which is basically a hot-rodded .270-08 with a steel head, brass case body, and chamber pressures of 80,000psi or higher, pushing a 135gr Armor Penetrator at 2900fps from a 13 barrel folding stock AR-10 carbine with suppressor.







6.8x43 SPC and 6.8x51 have about as much in common as a .30-30 Winchester does with a .300 Win Mag.

The NGSW is again Army institutional failure to recognize the lessons learned from about 140 years of metallic cartridge technology in military rifles, expeditionary campaigns, terminal ballistics studies, soldiers load studies, and MTO&E configurations spanning every conflict over the same time period.

It makes an amazing Sniper and Medium Machinegun Cartridge if youre ok with humping the same profile and relative weight of the 7.62 NATO, which we should have gotten away from.

It is a terrible proposition for 75-90% of the duty positions within an Infantry Company because they increased the weapon weight to that of an AR-10, while reducing the ammunition carrying capacity of everyone that carried an M4A1.

They really need a 2 cartridge solution to replace 7.62 NATO most importantly, and then 5.56 NATO with something even smaller with the same or better ballistics. Theyre trying to do a single caliber solution again, which has always failed.

The largest cartridge should not have a bore diameter larger than 6.5mm, and the case diameter should not be larger than .441. A .473 case diameter requires bulky magazines for DM Rifles and larger linked ammunition pouches for the LMG.

The smaller cartridge should not exceed the 5.56x45 case head diameter, and should be shorter than the current 2.250 COL, but match or exceed its performance.

If someone were to introduce that weapons mix, Joes would be ecstatic.

The chain of command will still manage to bend them over with more things to carry, but at least they would be able to carry more ammo than they can now, with more downrange effectiveness, less recoil, and an easier training curve.

We also have to look at disruptions to modern warfare with the proliferation of UAS, and Im not sure many people have thought about the 2nd-4th order of effects on what thats going to do to the Infantry MTO&E.

USMC has already gotten rid of their Scout Sniper Platoons (STA) and their main Sniper Training program from the Fleet by order of General Berger, after they roughed-up his son in Japan during an exercise. Nepotism is a terrible and insidious force for an organization. Marines remove Scout Sniper platoons from Infantry Battalions

After 37 years of formal US Army Sniper School training, the Army still hasnt figured out where Snipers are in the MTO&E. We were always in the Infantry Battalion Scout Platoons in the Line, but our Scout Platoon FM 7-92 didnt even mention the word Sniper. Now they have done something with incorporating Cavalry units into Infantry Brigades and tasking them with Recon.

Once all the unit-level sensing sessions and AAR comments on 6.8 NGSW start to flow back up the chain, you will see a preponderance of, This weapon is too heavy, is hard to charge, cant carry enough ammo, kinda want my M4 back please."

That's not what I thought I was replying too.

[cory]

USMC has already gotten rid of their Scout Sniper Platoons (STA) and their main Sniper Training program from the Fleet by order of General Berger, after they roughed-up his son in Japan during an exercise. Nepotism is a terrible and insidious force for an organization. Marines remove Scout Sniper platoons from Infantry Battalions

It's the first I've heard of this and it's appalling. It's amazing how fast we forgot the lessons we learned over 20 years of urban warfare.

[LRRPF52]

It's the first I've heard of this and it's appalling. It's amazing how fast we forgot the lessons we learned over 20 years of urban warfare.

A century of lessons-learned <<<< General’s son’s feelings

To be fair, USMC has bought into the technological refresh force posture and still maintained the Sniper skill set within MARSOC, though it doesn’t make a lot of sense to pull it from the Line Battalions and their STA Platoons.

A drone can’t see line of sight from ground-level to targets that may be concealed, and can’t deliver fires or munitions through loopholes and barricades as well as Snipers can.

The proliferation of UAS definitely is changing the face of warfare, and thankfully, the US is so far ahead of the power curve in that space that we command many layers of ISR and weaponized UAS that exceed the technical capacities of all other nations combined.